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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Please teach me about "tuck(estoc)"         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

I want to know swords/daggers called "mail-piercing sword" or "mail breaker"
So at first, I examine it about "tuck(estoc)".

I do not have a lot on swords... But I think that the "tuck(estoc)" is included a lot in Oakeshott Type XVII and XVIII.

Spotlight: Oakeshott Type XVII Swords
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxvii.html
There are eight historic examples photos on this page.

XVII.1 From the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge
XVII.2 From the Nationalmuseet, Copenhagen
XVII.3 From the Corporation of the City of Bristol
XVII.4 From the Nationalmuseet, Copenhagen
XVII.5 From the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York
XVII.6 Located in a Private Collection
XVII.7 From The Marzoli Collection, Brescia
XVII.8 The Royal Armouries, Leeds, IX.16

Which sword is called tuck(estoc)?

same question....
Spotlight: Oakeshott Type XVIII Swords
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxviii.html
There are 13 historic examples photos on this page.

XVIII.1 "Henry V Sword" from The Museum, Westminster Abbey
XVIII.2 From Musee de l'Armee in Paris
XVIII.3 Sword of Archduke Philip the Handsome
XVIII.4 From the National Museet, Copenhagen
XVIII.5 From The Wallace Collection, London (A.466)
XVIII.6 Located in a private collection
XVIII.7 From The Royal Armouries (IX.949)
XVIIIa.1 "The Sword of Albrecht II"
XVIIIa.2 on loan to the Royal Armouries
XVIIIa.3 From the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York
XVIIIa.4 Formerly in the Collection at Schloss Erbach
XVIIIa.5 "A Sword of Edward III"
XVIIIb.1 From the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, Munich

Which sword is called tuck(estoc)?
I think that XVIII.7 and XVIIIb.1 are tuck...

There is another question one more... Wink
I was interested in a painting read the page of Type XVIII.
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxviii02.jpg

There is it for a commentary with "Histoire de Roland"...
What is "Histoire de Roland"? Is this history books?
This painting zoomed a part, so I do not understand other parts and the whole...
What was this picture drawn about? Probably about a battle...

I look for whole painting and explanation.
(I think that this painting is exaggerated!!! Eek! )

Thanks

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A tuck (or estoc) is a specific type of sword. None of the swords you have shown are of that type. While some tucks may be diamond in cross-section and whatnot, they certainly aren't like an Oakeshott Type XV or XVIII enough to be called a tuck nor estoc.

Tucks/estocs are very specialized weapons. They are meant to be used almost entirely for thrusting and often are not sharpened for most or all of their blade's length. They often have very long grips and long, rigid blades. Often, the cross-section is triangular, pyramidal (square), or flattened diamond/hexagonal in shape.


I'm on my way out the door, but here are some quick examples:

http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/perman...?mulR=4700

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/983.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/936.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/950.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/982.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/984.html

And two hilts of such swords:




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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2009 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: Please teach me about "tuck(estoc)"         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
Which sword is called tuck(estoc)?
I think that XVIII.7 and XVIIIb.1 are tuck...


Nathan is right. Neither of these are tucks. The Type XVII, despite it's thrust-oriented design, isn't a tuck either since it's still supposed to have a respectable amount of cutting ability.


Quote:
There is another question one more... Wink
I was interested in a painting read the page of Type XVIII.
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxviii02.jpg

There is it for a commentary with "Histoire de Roland"...
What is "Histoire de Roland"? Is this history books?
This painting zoomed a part, so I do not understand other parts and the whole...
What was this picture drawn about? Probably about a battle...


I'm not familiar with the specific work in question, but it's probably a 15th-century version of the romance of Roland (also known as Hroudland, Orlando, etc.), one of Charlemagne's Twelve Paladins. The illustration clearly depicts one of the battles in the long list of Roland's chivalric exploits, perhaps even the incident at Roncesvalles. It wouldn't be surprising if the picture is heavily exaggerated since the tales of the Paladins are generally larger than life, full of magic and superhuman feats; any illustration of the tales would probably subscribe to the same kind of artistic license.
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm sorry... I should have written it after having examined it more.
I distinguished only in the shape of the guard(looks like "S") and a blade length(long nallow). Cry

I read bellow... and I knew that a blade was nallow than I thought. Happy
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_mrl_estoc.html

And I have doubt...
Is a tuck used by a battle? or it used for a duel? Question
Are there the images(painting, woodcut etc...) of fighting with a tuck?

Thanks Mr. Nathan Robinson
> I'm on my way out the door, but here are some quick examples:
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/perman...?mulR=4700
I looked for such a real general view image. Happy

Thanks Mr. Lafayette C Curtis
> but it's probably a 15th-century version of the romance of Roland (also known as Hroudland, Orlando, etc.)
Oh! "The Song of Roland". (It is known as "The Song of Roland" in Japan. But this story isn't famous, and I know only a name.) Happy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Roland

I found the illust of the general view.
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?...6NU0G0P5SE

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
I found the illust of the general view.
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?...6NU0G0P5SE


I don't see any tucks/estocs in that image.

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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr, 2009 4:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

oh sorry. This reply is about the illust of "The Song of Roland".

Quote:
I wrote:
There is another question one more...
I was interested in a painting read the page of Type XVIII.
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxviii02.jpg

There is it for a commentary with "Histoire de Roland"...
What is "Histoire de Roland"? Is this history books?
This painting zoomed a part, so I do not understand other parts and the whole...
What was this picture drawn about? Probably about a battle...


and Mr. Lafayette C Curtis told me that it is "The Song of Roland".
This painting zoomed a part, so I do not understand other parts and the whole...
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxviii02.jpg
and I found the illust of the general view.
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?...6NU0G0P5SE

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Sabine Benning





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Tue 14 Apr, 2009 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all together,

not a medieval estoc, but a later one ( 17th century) you can see on the left side of the photo: the longest estoc I ever saw.

kind regards



 Attachment: 83.32 KB
EstocWeb2.jpg


S.Benn
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue 14 Apr, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mr.Sabine Benning Happy

> not a medieval estoc, but a later one ( 17th century) you can see on the left side of the photo: the longest estoc I ever saw.

I think this very long estoc is a "koncerz"(used by "Winged Hussar").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koncerz
http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/comp/comp06.htm

The "koncerz" was used in battles by Winged Hussar.
Mmmmmm... Medieval estoc used for Battle? Question

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Sabine Benning





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 6:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Mr. Kawana,

good research about "longest estoc"!

You wrote:

"Mmmmmm... Medieval estoc used for Battle?"

Do you bear on the right one? It s a medieval sword for two hands. But not an estoc. Mind the geometry of the blade. But it is anyway a very rare type of sword.

The swords are to find in Varadzin, Kroatia.

kind regards

S.Benn
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. Sabine Benning Happy

> You wrote:
> "Mmmmmm... Medieval estoc used for Battle?"
> Do you bear on the right one? It s a medieval sword for two hands.
> But not an estoc.
Of course, I know that "the right sword isn't estoc". Happy
I wrote...... I want to know "Was a estoc used in the battle(war)". Wink

When I say to be concrete...
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/perman...?mulR=4700
Were these estocs used by war? Question
I look for an image fighting with these estocs. (or famous stories and anecdote...)

p.s.
sorry... my English is very poor Cry



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tuck_phil.gif


I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Sabine Benning





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Mr. Kawana,

now I understand. My mistake. My english is also poor.

Well, I think estocs were used in battle. May be there are sources, which shows us, if the estoc was the only weapon the fighter handled (except his dagger, of course).

Beyond that, there are lot of swords with slender amd rhombic blades, which rather fit the function of a stabbing sword than the function of a slashing sword.

There were surley mixed types. See http://www.hermann-historica.com/,
click "recent auctions", auction No 50, catalogue "antique arms and armor...", swords and rapiers, Lot 2012. It is a two-hand-sword from Dordogne or Lidoire in the vicinity of Castillon-la-Bataille.

Not a real estoc, but nearly. May be I can found out a little bit more about estocs in battle the text time.

kind regards

S.Benn
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Lukasz Papaj




Location: Malbork, Poland
Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are 3 types of estoc-like weapons:
1: "Knightly" tuck/estoc - mostly two handed version, about 130 cm overall length, descripted as heavy and poorly balanced, noted to be used up to first half of XVI century (if i recall correctly - earliest examples are from XIII century)
2: Hungarian "koncerz" - up to 160 cm of length, sabre hilt, descripted as lighter than "knightly" (thats the long one on a photo 5 posts above"). Weight about 1.7 - 2.5 lb, often blade of triangular crossection
3. Turkish "koncerz" - same length as no 2. with disc guard and heavy pommel., triangular or diamond blade crossection
No 2 and 3 were used up to first half of XVIII century.

As for battle usage- I do not have firm data on "knightly" estoc, just some mention that it could be used to either pierce mail or bludgeon one inside it (never cutting weapon).

Variants I numbered 2 and 3 were used as a backup weapon by cavalry units that used lance as main weapon (among them hussars, but not exclusively), that fought with enemy that used either mail or textile armour, in a pierce-and-rack manner. Both Hungarian and Turkish forms were one handed only. There are found examples that have pistols built in the hilt.
It is said that length of koncerz shoud be similar to the weapon it replaced, minus length of arm. (they were held in outstretched hand during the charge, still to replace the "tree"(hussar lance) it should have 310 cm, hardly imaginable )

As I wrote in other thread
Quote:
Sabre hilted: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Koncerz_Muz...%99bia.JPG
"turkish hilt" ( ones housed in Graz armoury)
and another one, combined with pistol
Something more on the subject here: http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Koncerz.htm


Edit: corrected the mistake in stating weight of hungarian koncerz - examples from "Muzeum Wojska Polskiego" that are 143 cm long have weight of 0.78 kg = 1.71 lb


Last edited by Lukasz Papaj on Wed 15 Apr, 2009 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sabine Benning





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Lukasz,

thank you very much for the descriptions of handling estocs variants 2 and 3!

Do you know any literature about the hussars and their fighting methods?

kind regards

S.Benn
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Lukasz Papaj




Location: Malbork, Poland
Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Features" section of myArmoury has a good primer on hussars
It also lists some sources, but mostly in Polish language. There are some talk on the forum about that as well. Links in my first post bear some data (the last one)Beyond the primer, English-language sources seem lacking, as far as I am aware, not being expert on the subject.

Mind that "numbering" of variants is my invention (as a shorthand for proper names), sources say about hungarian/sabre hilted koncerz and turkish-hilted koncerz.

Also, the more I think of it, the less and less I am sure koncerz and Tuck/Estoc means same thing, that's why I wrote about estoc-like weapons

Last thing, bit off-topic: as far as I am aware, hussars wore "Wings" only for parades Happy


Last edited by Lukasz Papaj on Thu 16 Apr, 2009 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sabine Benning wrote:
Hello Mr. Kawana,

good research about "longest estoc"!

You wrote:

"Mmmmmm... Medieval estoc used for Battle?"

Do you bear on the right one? It s a medieval sword for two hands. But not an estoc. Mind the geometry of the blade. But it is anyway a very rare type of sword.

The swords are to find in Varadzin, Kroatia.

kind regards


Sorry for correcting, but it's Varaz()din, Croatia. I'm from Varazdin and I have seen some hussar estocs a long time ago when I was in our museum last time. I suppose you are talking about saber-like hilted estoc, right? I have seen only these. Where is that longsword looking one from?
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Sabine Benning





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all together,

Sorry. It was typos. Varazdin is correct.

Luka Borscak wrote:
Where is that longsword looking one from?

You bear on the medieval two-hand-sword? I visited the castle in September 2006. I am not sure, where the sword is from.

kind regards

S.Benn
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Sabine Benning





Joined: 03 Jun 2007

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

... the beautiful castle in Varazdin.

kind regards



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S.Benn
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sabine Benning wrote:
Hello all together,

not a medieval estoc, but a later one ( 17th century) you can see on the left side of the photo: the longest estoc I ever saw.

kind regards


This picture is from Varazdin? I didn't see that sword last time. Maybe that room was not opened that day.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Apr, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can see a couple of estocs in this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13868 .
Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Thu 16 Apr, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. Lukasz Papaj Happy

Quote:
There are 3 types of estoc-like weapons:
1: "Knightly" tuck/estoc - mostly two handed version, about 130 cm overall length, descripted as heavy and poorly balanced, noted to be used up to first half of XVI century (if i recall correctly - earliest examples are from XIII century)
2: Hungarian "koncerz" - up to 160 cm of length, sabre hilt, descripted as lighter than "knightly" (thats the long one on a photo 5 posts above"). Weight about 1.7 - 2.5 lb, often blade of triangular crossection
3. Turkish "koncerz" - same length as no 2. with disc guard and heavy pommel., triangular or diamond blade crossection
No 2 and 3 were used up to first half of XVIII century.


Your sentence is very concise and is very plain. Happy
(I am weak in long sentence and difficult expression. So I need much time to translate into Japanese.) Sad

I know this site(You taught me)... http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koncerz
But... I cann't read... And the English page has little information... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koncerz

-----------

Thganks Mr. Chad Arnow Happy
> You can see a couple of estocs in this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13868
Now I'm reading it's thread

---------------
On the coattails of all of you, I was able to watch a genuine estoc.
If you know images fighting with a estoc, please teach it.

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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