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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject: XIIIa in the 15th century         Reply with quote

Hi all,

Oakeshott mentions a revival of the XIIIa in the last part of the 15th, and I've seen a bunch of XIIIas with 15th century hilts, but I can't at the moment find any examples besides the "writhen" hilt XIIIa in Records.

Does anyone have any images from artwork or actuall swords, or other evidence of the popularity of these great swords in the later part of the 15th century?

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Michael G.





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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a Swiss XIIIa from the 15th-16th century about halfway down this page:

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/swiss-swords.html

There are a couple of pics, but none of the full sword. Plenty of measurements, though.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The pommel and guard are pretty much the same as on XIIIa's from Oakeshott's Records dated to second half of the 14th century, I don't know why this one should be dated to 15th/16th century... Maybe early 15th, but I doubt that it could be later.
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Lukasz Papaj




Location: Malbork, Poland
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well that's preety much problem with any XIIIa, there are pieces with late pommels (theres one in poland that has type "T" pommel on it, on that premise some author put in at the end of XIV century, the guard is somewhat similar to style 7, but with tips curling to the pommel not to tip, or so it looks at photo). I'm aware of 2 swords classified as XIIIa's, housed in "Spiskie Muzeum" in Levoca, that have hilts that are dated around year 1500. (below i attach the photo of that sword)

All above info comes from "Miecze Środkowoeuropejskie Z X-XV w - Marian Głosek - Pan, IHKM - Wyd Geologiczne, Warszawa 1984", pages 32-33, tab XXVIII-4

(I might add that to me that looks more like some kind of XVIa,the tip is acute, and section looks hexagonal on that photo, but I'm no expert, and judging from not the best quality photo is not the best thing)



 Attachment: 10.24 KB
XIIIa_Levoca.jpg
supposed late XIIIa Muzeum Spiskie in Levoča
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The ones with type T pommel probably are 15th century, but the Swiss one has disc pommel typical for 14th century.
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you guys, this is very helpful. The more the merrier, so keep 'em coming.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know you are looking for pictures of originals, but look at Del Tin DT5156, a replica of a 15th century XIIIa - http://www.deltin.net/5156.htm
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2009 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
I know you are looking for pictures of originals, but look at Del Tin DT5156, a replica of a 15th century XIIIa - http://www.deltin.net/5156.htm


That's more of a XX than a XIIIa, but it is similar enough in purpose.

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Roger Hooper wrote:
I know you are looking for pictures of originals, but look at Del Tin DT5156, a replica of a 15th century XIIIa - http://www.deltin.net/5156.htm


That's more of a XX than a XIIIa, but it is similar enough in purpose.


I respectfully disagree. Russ Ellis and I used to argue over this model. He also maintained that it was a type XX.

Type XX's usually have two fullers on each side of a central one, but they can also have just two. But there is a noticeable profile taper in the picture below of a type XX, taken from this website.

The DT5156 has a double fuller, but that isn't uncommon in XIIIa's. It also has virtually no profile taper like the typical XIIIa.

But, as you imply, it doesn't really make that much difference. Whoever made the original of this sword certainly wasn't thinking about Oakeshott typology.



 Attachment: 5.16 KB
TYPE XX.jpg
Type XX
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This one of those swords where Oakeshott's typology struggles with, but then I think the typology struggles with most things above XVIII. The type XIIIa, however, is a very distinctive sword...you can spot one right away, and this sword just doesn't fit that mold, not for me. But then, without seeing the real sword, I'd hesitate to draw any conclusions.

The sword posted by Lukasz Papaj also looks like more of a XIIa to me, but that's close enough for comfort.

It's surprising that there are so few images online of true XIIIa swords from the15th century. I guess I'll have to hit the musuems now. Happy

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Lukasz Papaj




Location: Malbork, Poland
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PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2009 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I completely agree that picture I posted does not look like typical XIIIa. i just noticed that somehow type XIIa does not appear in "my" source book at all, and there are differences between Oakeshott's typology presented here on myArmoury and in the book. Most probable cause was that in the time of writing (1984) author did not have access to updated typology. It is not the first time that knowledge does not circulate well between sides of former iron curtain
I would like throw in 3 other specimens from the same book:
1. The sword recovered in Szarlej near Kruszwica, Poland, probably in use in last quarter of XIV c and at beginning of XV. Looks like cut down XIIIa fitted replacement pommel.(Tab XXVIII no. 5)
2&3, Swords described as type XX, from Levoča, Slovakia, again (Tab. XXXV, no 4&5) .. that place looks like one nice to visit (there were at least 4 greatswords housed there, with fifth moved to Bratislava, at least in the time of writing of the book, wonder if someone in vicinity to get better info on them and/or their current whereabouts)
That also reminds me to move my lazy a.. to the Castle and see what is currently on display.



 Attachment: 14.71 KB
XIIIa_cutdown_Szarlej-Kruszwica_Poland.jpg
Found in Szarlej near Kruszwica, Poland, most probably type XIIIa, damaged blade reground and fitted new pommel

 Attachment: 22.95 KB
TypeXX.jpg
type XX, Levoča, Slovakia, Spiskie Muzeum
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2009 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lukasz,

Thank you! Those are great images. What book is that from? I'd like to see if I can get a copy.

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Lukasz Papaj




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PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2009 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They are from same publication as one I shown before, that is : "Miecze Środkowoeuropejskie Z X-XV w - Marian Głosek - PAN, IHKM - Wyd Geologiczne, Warszawa 1984" . It's fairly old, yet as far as I know its one of only two books that focus on swords from central europe (meaning: eastern block part: east Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary), the second is "M. Głosek, A. Nadolski: “Miecze średniowieczne z ziem polskich”, Łódź 1970" , even older and rarer. I'm not aware if any translation of them exist. I've recently purchased a copy from internet auction for 20E. I'm aware that there's another one on auction right now (in reportedly medicore state, and no shipping to US, but there are some pictures to see on auction description). I think there are 20-30 of this books on some auction per year, some in very good state for a softcover, had no real trouble nailing my copy, though I think it'll be of limited use to someone not able to read Polish (there's only brief English synopsis at the back)
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