Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > raising helmets? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: raising helmets?         Reply with quote

When making a helmet, I am wondering if heating is necessary for moderate dishing? For simpler shapes, such as barrel helms, can it just be formed cold from something like mild 16 / 14 gage steel? Could the hobbyist just normalize heavily cold worked areas with a torch?

Also rivets.... I am guessing heated iron rivets would be more authentic than copper? I have not seen enough originals to know. Again, a micro torch might be adequate to finish closing black iron rivets.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
View user's profile Send private message
Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Likes: 27 pages

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not having actually raised steel before, but being familiar with raising as a process (I have worked with copper and silver raising as part of my Metals BFA I am working towards), I will toss in my .02 .

Raising is a lot of work, and while it is possible to raise steel cold, it will be much, much easier to do hot, and take less time, especially considering you want to use 14 or 16g. Also, when done correctly, raising thickens the gauge of the metal, so if you start at 14 or 16g it will most likely thicken to 12 or 10, or possibly more depending on what angle you hit the metal at. It will also be easier on the metal if you raise hot.

Hope this helps. Happy

www.addisondelisle.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Justin King
Industry Professional



Location: flagstaff,arizona
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 551

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Theoretically you can cold work the material and normalize/anneal with a torch as necessary, provided you can heat it to the proper degree, which should be at bright red heat or just going to orange, seen in dim light. You have to be careful not to overwork the material or it will crack, so it requires a feel for how much the material can deform before annealing is needed.
With sterling silver you can do this indefinitely, I have never tried it with steel. if I were going to attempt this I would start by experimenting on a scrap of mild steel of a known content such as 1018, and avoid A-36 or mystery steel from the hardware store.
There are unboubtedly others who can give more detailed info.
View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I have not seen enough originals to know. Again, a micro torch might be adequate to finish closing black iron rivets


I'm not sure i'm follofwing you, why would you heat a rivet for piening at all?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If using an actual iron rivet, it should be heated just prior to peening. I think most reproductions are using more malleable (copper) rivets, but have not actually seen many examples.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Got me never ever heard of that, don't know how you'd pull it off rivet by rivet while building during the period. Far as I know Brass and steel rivets are the norm today i'm not familiar with anyone using copper rivets as a production offering today, brass, steel or iron then. As iron is softer than steel, and i've never had any difficulty piening steel rivets cold, i'm not sure what benefit would be had heating a softer iron rivet ( keep in mind the only way to heat them at that time would have been to heat the whole area so a large part of the piece, the area right where you are working would be very hot ) would get you in a armouring application. Maybe some one with more info than me can shead some light on it for us.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
D. Austin
Industry Professional



Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 20 Sep 2007

Posts: 208

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: raising helmets?         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
When making a helmet, I am wondering if heating is necessary for moderate dishing? For simpler shapes, such as barrel helms, can it just be formed cold from something like mild 16 / 14 gage steel? Could the hobbyist just normalize heavily cold worked areas with a torch?

Also rivets.... I am guessing heated iron rivets would be more authentic than copper? I have not seen enough originals to know. Again, a micro torch might be adequate to finish closing black iron rivets.


Hi Jared,

Heating is certainly not necessary for moderate dishing. I have dished bowls quite deeply, such as those for poleyns, as well as helmet halves without heat at all. I used hot rolled mild steel, which is really quite soft, and it worked fine. If however, you have access to a decent heat source (forge/big torch etc), this will certainly save a lot of time and effort. With my first attempt at raising a helm, I was astonished at how much easier it was than dishing and swore I'd never go back. These days, unless it's a shallow dish or simple curve, I always work my armour hot at first, then tweak it a little and even it out cold, before planishing (also cold of course). For a barrel helm, I wouldn't use any heat at all. Another point, I wouldn't even attempt raising cold steel. It works with copper but properly annealing steel takes several hours and it will have to be done many times in the course of making a helmet.

I'd definitely recommend steel rivets, unless it's a 15th C piece, in which case brass can look good. If it's to hold a barrel helm together, steel. These can be peened cold, which will eliminate the need for polishing the helm with rivets in place. I know when making tongs, I do make the rivet hot, but not when armouring.

Hope this helps,

Darren.
View user's profile Send private message
Chris Arrington





Joined: 06 Apr 2007

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Flat top Barrel Helms can be made without any heat if you make the top out of one piece and then rivet it to the sides.

If your going to be dishing Stainless Steel of any considerable depth, you will want to work it hot. If not, it work hardens very quickly and makes it tough to get anything done.
View user's profile Send private message
Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. A great helm is one of those projects that I plan to undertake. I was hoping to avoid a coal forge since I only have access to one once per month.

Plain steel rivets are inexpensive, and I am considering making the odd fixtures (angled anvil stake with rivet heat recess, peening bar) needed to peen them on a helm. Other issues are the use of washers, and cosmetically pretty outsides versus historical outside appearances of the rivets. (I have the impression that washers and rough finish were on the outside, optimum domed head was turned in for safety of the wearer.) Live Steel Armour's web site discusses the advantages (less corrosion, prettier appearance) of modern bronze rivets in reproduction. I am not sure how accurate their information is (statistical % of artifacts that it applies to.) http://www.livesteelarmor.com/tech/bur.html

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
View user's profile Send private message
Joel Minturn





Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 232

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have made, and have friends, who have made a fair number of different helmets for SCA use. We used the cold rolled steel and have dished them all with out heating any of them. I guess it depends on how much you want to work them but one can get a good dish without having to anneal.

As for rivets. I have used steel rivets, worked cold and they looked all right. The trick is finding something that has one side that looks like the period ones. Ok most of the rivets were steel nails because they were cheap and easy to get. If you need some tricks for getting started riveting let me know, ahh hours of entertainment.
View user's profile Send private message
Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First a bit of terminology:

Raising is a different process the sinking/dishing. In sinking you stretch the metal by hammering on the inside of the curve you are creating into a void or space, think putting your flat piece of metal on top of an empty bowl and hammering the metal in the center. Raising is a much more complex process where using different hammers and stakes to move metal generally by striking on the outside of the curve that you are creating. When you raise you can make the metal do all sorts of funky things. When you sink you pretty much stuck stretching the metal and can do fewer cool things.

Yes you can cold work mild steel into simple helmet. Most of the helmets used rattan combat in the SCA are made from pieces of cold worked steel that have either been welded or riveted together. Stainless steel is nastier to work and is not historically correct, cost a lot more too. If you are just starting armouring, use mild steel.

Another good place to find information and help on armouring is: Armour Archive http://www.armourarchive.org/

Hope this helps.
mackenzie

Some people use the term dishing, some people use the term sinking and some people fight about it.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > raising helmets?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum