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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Del Tin Marquardo Von Randeck sword.         Reply with quote

Looking and drooling about the Marquardo Von Randeck sword made by Del Tin on KoA and thinking of buying it:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~DT51...andeck.htm

Most interesting is the prominent ridge on the blade as very few reproduction blade seem to be available with this style of blade. ( Very few or no others I know of ? ).

This seems like a one hander as the handle is very short but the pommel is very much like an extension of the handle and making it possibly long enough for a two handed grip ? ( But still a very short two handed handle ).

With the mid blade ridge I'm assuming that it's a very rigid blade and it should be a reasonably good cutter as well at least until the ridge slow things down a bit if the cut is very deep.

I don't think this one would easily fit an Oakeshott type ? Outline might be an XVIII but I wonder how that central ridge would factor in.

Handling does seem like the amount of blade presence would be great at least in this Del Tin version ? A lot depends on mass distribution and there is a lot of profile taper but I wonder about the distal taper ? Now there might be two distal tapers to consider, the main blade " bevel " may be very flat along the entire length of the blade with only a small amount of distal taper. the ridge seems to have some distal taper according to the published specifications but the amount of mass in the ridge seems like it need not have much distal taper and not have a bad effect on handling ?

Anyway, I'm posting this to get opinions about this sword, aesthetics and handling " guesses ". Now if someone has actually handled or owned this one I would appreciate their input as well.

I'm starting to be a fan of the Del Tins as I think they have the look of period made swords although some may be overweight by a small margin being made as blunts and for people using them in reenactments or stage fighting
( Overbuilt to a small degree ? ).

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Sat 14 Mar, 2009 9:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2009 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, as usual when I get to the point of asking questions like this I broke down and just ordered the sword. Wink Big Grin

Been looking at it every day for the last few days since it first appeared on the Kult of Athena " New in stock " page and my curiosity got the better of me ....... Keeping the economy going Razz Big Grin

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is certainly an unusual looking sword, with a really long blade for a singlehander - 39.5 inches . I looked it up on the Del Tin website, where it says that even though attributed to Marquardo Von Randeck, it is more typical of the late 15th century.

Let us know how it handles. It seems like it will be blade-heavy.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2009 9:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HI Jean-

I've found blades with a mid-ridge to be very interesting, myself! Some Oakeshott Type XVs have them...

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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kult of Athena says: Thickness: 10 mm - 7.4 mm and width 60mm. It sure is stiff and I would say blade heavy, but maybe it isn't because of profile taper... Who knows... I'm very curious to hear your impression when it arrives.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Kult of Athena says: Thickness: 10 mm - 7.4 mm and width 60mm. It sure is stiff and I would say blade heavy, but maybe it isn't because of profile taper... Who knows... I'm very curious to hear your impression when it arrives.


Yes curiosity is a definite factor in my purchasing this one, the thickness is that of the ridge and stiffness can be a good thing for half swording against armour.

The weight doesn't seem too bad considering the length of blade but I think there will be a lot of blade presence and I look forward to seeing how it compares to my Albion Gaddhjalt i.e. feels more or less forward weighted ?

The thickness of the blade on each side of the ridge may or may not have distal taper, but with blades with a great deal of profile taper this may be lest important to give good handling ?

Uses of this sword is intriguing as it seems way too long for a typical one hander but in half swording the length of the handle becomes less of an issue ? Could this sword be intended for a lot of half swording when fighting against armoured opponents and as a cutting blade against lightly armoured or from horseback as a kind of estoc but with edges !?

It's always fun to try to guess about the way one would fight with a heavy one hander and it's use by itself or with a shield ?

At this size sword I don't think it would work well for 1:33 . Wink Big Grin ( Too slow, too long and heavy as one would get tired quickly and not be able to move it very fast for very long ) I always find these outliers in handling a puzzle but I tend to like them but might choose something else if my life depended on being to use one well !

A separate issue is whether this sword as made by Del Tin is close to the handling of the one it is based on, and it might be overweight.

I should be able to give my impressions in about a week to 10 days when I have it here.

Oh, it does seem more credible that it's a late 15th. century sword that has been " traditionally " attributed to to Marquardo Von Randeck but in period it does seem like this happened a lot like the swords associated with Charlemagne or other things like supposed pieces of the Cross or bones of Saints: A lot of period fraud or wishful and naive thinking. Wink Laughing Out Loud

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Sun 15 Mar, 2009 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with most of what you said. And this surely is a very interesting sword.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As you said, Jean, one could half-sword it against a fully plate armoured opponent, thrusting it through chinks or seams. The more I think of it, the more appropriate that particular use is for this sword.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, you must have received this sword from KOA by now. What do you think of it?
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Jean, you must have received this sword from KOA by now. What do you think of it?


You are more impatient than me I think. Wink Big Grin With the tracking I think it could be tomorrow or later this week depending on how long Canada Customs takes to release it. ( From experience it take anything from 1 to 4 days and this varies each time ).

Shipped last Monday or Tuesday so it's almost here and I'd say 20% chance of getting it tomorrow, up to 60% by Wednesday and almost 100% by Friday unless there is an unusual delay.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Update, nope still no sword in hand but the package is finally out of Canada Customs where it was stuck at since the 19th: On the long side but not unusually so, but I have been lucky at times when the customs clearance took only 1 day.

The odds are good for delivery tomorrow or Thursday.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well it came in today and I will give some initial impressions, I may add more later if I have other thoughts later or if I forget something.

Just to recap the statistics:

My numbers are slightly different from the one's on the KoA site by very small amounts:

1) Total length: 47" ( KoA says 46 5/8" ...... these probably come from Del Tin but the lengths may vary from production runs to production run or individually ).

2) Blade length: 39 3/4" ( depends on how one measures: Centre line the escusion mid guard takes away a little bit from the length, if one measures from the main branches of the guard one gets a little more length )

3) The grip is 3 1/8 " long ( Wire wrapped part ) with the pommel one gets a total functional length of 6 1/2 "

My 47 " of total length includes the small pommel extension and the end of the peened tang.

The finish is the standard Del Tin one and look slightly dark like a very light patina. There seems to be a lacquer finish that is only obvious on the pommel and guard and may also be present on the blade: This is fine for display and I guess it gives a lot of protection from rust when in transit or longterm storage. I personally prefer to remove lacquer finishes and I will probably lightly blue the hilt furniture and maybe the blade.

The lettering and engraving in the blade might be filled in with gold paint to highlight them: Just a thought at the moment but it would look good if the guard is blued !?

Oh, more statistics:

Pivot point:

With the grip held just above the guard and doing the " wiggle waggle " test I get a pivot point 26" from the guard and
13 3/4 " from the point. ( Maybe Vincent can plug in the numbers and give us what the figures tell him about handling and mass distribution: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=15288&start=40 ).

The blade bevels on each side of the central ridge are very flat and thin over the whole length of the blade, there may be some very subtle distal taper in the flats but it's barely perceivable.

The central ridge does have some distal taper but retains a great deal of thickness over the whole length of the blade but the small amount of total mass in the ridge shouldn't have a lot of impact on handling but it does a great job of stiffening the blade i.e. very stiff and would be very good in the thrust.

The heat treat seems very good as I bent the blade about 30 degrees on each side and it return to true without taking a set.
It take some force to do this but nothing huge, so even with the thickness of the central ridge the blade will still bend if enough force is applied. ( I could probably bent it much more but I don't like doing this too often or to much as it shouldn't become a habit to stress a blade for no good reason once one has established that the heat teat seems good ).

This is a huge sword as far as blade length for a one hander, and even though the point of balanced is at 6 " from the guard, it feels very agile while having a lot of blade presence.

Cutting should be very good if sharpened at least until or if the central ridge causes some resistance to a deep cut ? But somehow I think this sword could power it's way through and cause a great deal of damage even if slowed down a bit by a wedging effect ?

Short version: This sword doesn't feel at all like a sharpened crowbar and feels more agile than my Albion Gaddhjalt and about the same as my Tritonia. In other words it is not the fastest sword but it has a lot of presence and the point seems to aim itself in the thrust: How close the handling is to the original sword it is copied from I don't know but it feels real good to me ! ( But a bit too long for 1:33 but would be great with a shield or for half swording ).

These central ridge swords seem to be the best way to get maximum stiffness while keeping the total mass down to manageable levels and devastating cutting power at the same time.

Oh, two handed use is possible with the long pommel but leverage is not ideal, but in a pinch one could use it this way.

I think the handling might be similar to a heavy bladed rapier ??? Very interesting design and very different from the usual fullered, hollow ground diamond shaped blades.

Even shorter version: I like it and the hilt furniture is tight and feels solid. Big Grin

Oh, the price on this one seems to have gone up since I bought the first one in stock from KoA ?

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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean,

I am glad that you are happy with the Del Tin. It's definately an interesting sword, one that I eyed myself. Congratulations on your new aquisition!

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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Maybe Vincent can plug in the numbers and give us what the figures tell him about handling and mass distribution


With pleasure Happy

I assumed your holding point for the waggle test was at the cross, or rather at the reference point you chose in order to measure the blade length. Tell me if it's not the case...

The sword is dynamically equivalent to a 519g uniform stick with a 887g point mass located 15mm in front of the reference point (cross). Here is a picture contrasting the sword with your Ravenwolf and my A&A Milanese rapier:



(As I explained in the thread Jean linked to: the rectangles have a length proportional to the length of the sword, an area proportional to the uniform stick mass, and the location and length of the bar on them is representative of the position and magnitude of the point mass. The red line represents the position of the cross, used to line up the weapons)

Now that's for the dry, objective part of the mass distribution. If you don't mind I'll try to make a more functional commentary in the rest of this post, bear in mind that my understanding of the whole thing is still in evolution Happy

On all three the point mass is very near the cross. Your two swords, Jean, have it a bit further down the blade, which might make them feel slightly more difficult to stop in cutting motions.

The Del Tin has roughly the same stick mass as the RavenWolf. The stick mass is the part that impacts the target, the heavier it is the more mass the target 'sees' impacting. So if you manage the same blade velocity with both, the blunt trauma and target displacement will be similar. As you said the actual cutting performance will possibly differ because of the differences in edge angles and the ridge. At 435g stick mass, the Milanese rapier has a less heavy hit.

Because it is a bit longer, the Del Tin has a greater inertia around the cross than both others. It should make it a bit harder to stop and recover quickly from a cut. On the other hand it gives it stability when flinging it forward to thrust. The Cavalier rapier from Arms&Armour has this particularity to an even more extreme point. I guess it could be argued that the Milanese rapier is balanced a bit like the Del Tin, but scaled down: it is shorter and lighter, somewhat thinner in the stick proportionally as well. Also, it can be fingered, and I don't know how practical this would be with the Del Tin, with the wider blade and no complex guard.

The key difference between the Del Tin and the RavenWolf is in the point mass. So what does it change?

First off, if you fling a sword forward in a thrust, it's the total mass that counts. The RavenWolf will be slower to accelerate this way, but will also deal more punch at the impact with all the added mass.

Second, it makes the strong of the sword heavier: more tiring to move around (slower parries I suppose) but also less easy to unsettle (stronger parries).

Third, it makes the sword 'snap' into cuts. This is possibly a bit more difficult to grasp. As you swing the sword, it rotates relative to your hand, somewhere around the level of the pommel. What happens is that the point mass roughly at the cross will drive the rest of the blade in rotation, so the bigger it is, the more 'snap' the sword has. Well, your Del Tin is less 'snappy' than your RavenWolf because it does not have that big point mass at the cross.

Does any of this fit your perceptions, Jean? And thanks again for the additionnal data Happy

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, I assumed that sword was going to be a clunker. I'm glad that it has many positive characteristics and justifies its unusual design. Congratulations on picking a winner.

I can't quite make out the Latin words on the guard. What does it say? Is there more writing on the other side of the guard?

Maybe this wasn't true before the price bump, but at $560.00, the DT5146 is the most expensive of the 56 Del Tins at KOA, even more than the schiavona. I wonder why? The writing on the guard may be part of it, but what else?
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Maybe this wasn't true before the price bump, but at $560.00, the DT5146 is the most expensive of the 56 Del Tins at KOA, even more than the schiavona. I wonder why? The writing on the guard may be part of it, but what else?


The blade cross-section, pommel shape and decoration, guard shape and decoration, wire wrap, etc. It looks pretty complex to me.

Happy

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

The blade cross-section, pommel shape and decoration, guard shape and decoration, wire wrap, etc. It looks pretty complex to me.


Good points, Chad, but one could say similar things about DT5167 (two-hander), DT5174 (dussack), and DT2160 (German H&H) and their prices are lower than that of the DT5146.

I was wrong about this sword being the most expensive of the lot. DT5168 (German Great sword) surpasses it at $600.00.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent:

My holding point on the grip for the wiggle waggle test was on the handle almost but not on the guard itself, so I would say that your calculations are based on a point maybe 1/2 " away from where it held it ...... I don't think this should make a great deal of difference.

My impressions are that the RavenWolf rotates in the hand a bit faster than the Del Tin if one just moves the wrist up and down but this is well compensated by the fact that the Del Tin is lighter.

The RavenWolf might have more potential power in a thrust but the foible is more flexible than the Del Tin so that even with less energy the Del Tin would penetrate better as it's very " pointy " ( As delivered as a semi-blunt the tip need a little work to really make it needle sharp, but even slightly blunt it would be too dangerous to spar with ).

When I finger the guard the Del Tin feel somewhat faster and nimbler and if using a steel gauntlet the lack of a complex guard wouldn't be an issue. Also when fingered it does make the handle easier to use a two handed grip.

One would have to adapt one's fencing style to the very long blade but I could almost do 1:33 type work with it as far as moving the blade fast enough is concerned but the great length could be a + or - depending on guard.

Overall your description of handling based on your formula seems very close to my perceived impressions: If you could handle both swords yourself you might find some minor things that might surprise you but only in refining your impressions based on your calculations, but I think it would mostly confirm that you are on to something that is at least 90% predictive of handling character based on just the numbers.

Bottom line is that if I had to choose a sword to really fight with I don't know if this Del Tin would be my first choice but it would be up there with the 3 that feel the best to me i.e. I wouldn't feel burdened by a difficult to handle sword. Wink Big Grin

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Jean, I assumed that sword was going to be a clunker. I'm glad that it has many positive characteristics and justifies its unusual design. Congratulations on picking a winner.

I can't quite make out the Latin words on the guard. What does it say? Is there more writing on the other side of the guard?

Maybe this wasn't true before the price bump, but at $560.00, the DT5146 is the most expensive of the 56 Del Tins at KOA, even more than the schiavona. I wonder why? The writing on the guard may be part of it, but what else?


O.K. as close as I can make out here is what is engraved on the guard:

Side 1) A.N. MCCCLXVI - - - - - - - - - DIEC. VI. IVL. ( Left side - - - - - - Right side branch of guard )

Side 2) TECMP rec MAR. - - - - - - - QVARDI. PATR. ( Left side - - - - - - Right side branch of guard )

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 11:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any idea about what Oakshott type one could put this sword in if any ?

XVa maybe as a strong midrib is sometimes mentioned but I think these should almost have a type of their own as they optimize the mass distribution in a way completely different from hollow grinds, fullers, taper and distal taper ! ( Well the taper is still a factor, the distal taper mostly just for the midridge, no fullers and no hollow grind ..... in fact the flat are subtlety convex not hollow ).

A deep hollow grind with prominent midridge is similar but these have an almost flat main bevel thickening only very slightly from the edge towards the ridge and then the ridge is a triangle of steel on each side of the blade.

Actually these remind me a lot of the bronze age sword that also used a thick midridge on an otherwise relatively thin blade
cross-section.

Type XVa, maybe ? But only if blade shape is the only important factor to consider.

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