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Jacob D. Green




Location: Richmond, VA
Joined: 11 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject: War/Kidney Belt         Reply with quote

Hello,

I've looked in this forum for information about war belts (kidney belts) and can't find anything. The thing I'd like to know is whether or not war belts were worn during the late 12th century, Third Crusade period. I've not seen any information on this anywhere, really, and Oakeshott doesn't mention it in A Knight and His Armour... but on another forum, somebody suggested that a guy add it to his 12th century costume (worn over the hauberk but under the tunic). Please share your knowledge with me.

Thanks,
Jacob
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

a what? what is a war belt? like a SCA kidney protection?

i have not heard of such a thing. hmmm sorry. the only thing i know of is mail and a coat of plates.
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Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The only war belt I can remember Oakeshotte describing was a migration era piece much like a weightlifter's belt but without narrowing in the front. It was re-enforced with vertical metal strips and IIRC had tie-rings for mounting weapons. Such a belt would probably be a strictly external garment. I have never seen anything similar in a later context. FWIW It is easy to imagine Thor tightening just such a girtle when needing greater strength.
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 385

PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb, 2009 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
The only war belt I can remember Oakeshotte describing was a migration era piece much like a weightlifter's belt but without narrowing in the front. It was re-enforced with vertical metal strips and IIRC had tie-rings for mounting weapons. Such a belt would probably be a strictly external garment. I have never seen anything similar in a later context. FWIW It is easy to imagine Thor tightening just such a girtle when needing greater strength.


The belts worn under the hauberk to suspend maile leggings (I know that isn't the right term, but it is 4 in the morning) might sorta match the description of a "war-belt", though not to the same extent as Thor's power lifting belt mentioned by Allen
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Jacob D. Green




Location: Richmond, VA
Joined: 11 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
a what? what is a war belt? like a SCA kidney protection?
i have not heard of such a thing. hmmm sorry. the only thing i know of is mail and a coat of plates.


Yeah, it's just kidney protection or back support, or maybe both... Not for the SCA, though. The only real context I can give you is a weightlifter's belt, or Altair's belt from Assassin's Creed:

http://www.thebbps.com/blog/2007/09/17/assass...gure-form/
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Jacob D. Green




Location: Richmond, VA
Joined: 11 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
The only war belt I can remember Oakeshotte describing was a migration era piece much like a weightlifter's belt but without narrowing in the front. It was re-enforced with vertical metal strips and IIRC had tie-rings for mounting weapons. Such a belt would probably be a strictly external garment. I have never seen anything similar in a later context. FWIW It is easy to imagine Thor tightening just such a girtle when needing greater strength.


Do you happen to know in which book of Oakshott's you found that information? ...Everything you said sounds exactly right - but migration era is at least 500 years before the Third Crusade. Ah well - I think I'm going to put the original information down as misinformed. It just means one thing less I have to make for my armor, anyway, right? haha
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Jacob D. Green




Location: Richmond, VA
Joined: 11 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nat Lamb wrote:
The belts worn under the hauberk to suspend maile leggings (I know that isn't the right term, but it is 4 in the morning) might sorta match the description of a "war-belt", though not to the same extent as Thor's power lifting belt mentioned by Allen


The term you're looking for is chausses, I think - I'm pretty sure that's the word for both regular period stockings and mail leggings. I can tell you, what you're suggesting isn't what I was thinking of, but your reply begs two more questions:

Did mail chausses of the period (1180-1210) just cover the front of the leg, and get buckled in the back, or did they wrap all the way around?

Also, was the belt you refer to enough to hold up the weight of mail leggings on its own, or was there also a set of some kind of suspenders involved? I know later on there was a garment (a pourpoint, I think) used for holding up leg armor that was kind of similar to a waistcoat, but that was a couple hundred years after my target time.
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Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I want to say Archaeology of Weapons but my copy is currently loaned out.
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Jared B




Location: Montana, USA
Joined: 14 Feb 2009

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey all, just found this site today and I think I'll like coming on here, since I'm interested in weapons and armor from all times (other than guns though). Anyways, I have heard of these belts before and have found a free armor making instructional online that gives some hints for this belt and how to make it. Looks really simple.

You can download the file here
http://www.arador.com/construction/index.html

You will have to search through it a while to find the belt, because there is alot of other stuff to look at besides.

If you decide to print the file, you will need alot of paper and to print it in grayscale. No other way prints correctly.

Can be found on romanarmytalk.com/rat as Nihonius Legio
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

4th Century AD Roman
all of the pictures are clicky to bring up the larger version.




are you thinking of a wide belt like those worn in the 4th century? here's my version.
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Jacob D. Green




Location: Richmond, VA
Joined: 11 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared B wrote:
...I have heard of these belts before and have found a free armor making instructional online that gives some hints for this belt and how to make it. Looks really simple.
You can download the file here
http://www.arador.com/construction/index.html
You will have to search through it a while to find the belt, because there is alot of other stuff to look at besides.


Welcome, Jared. There are a lot of friendly people here who know an awful lot. Can you post a link for the article you mentioned? I looked all over the site and couldn't find anything belt-like.
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Jared B




Location: Montana, USA
Joined: 14 Feb 2009

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 4:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jacob D. Green wrote:
Jared B wrote:
...I have heard of these belts before and have found a free armor making instructional online that gives some hints for this belt and how to make it. Looks really simple.
You can download the file here
http://www.arador.com/construction/index.html
You will have to search through it a while to find the belt, because there is alot of other stuff to look at besides.


Welcome, Jared. There are a lot of friendly people here who know an awful lot. Can you post a link for the article you mentioned? I looked all over the site and couldn't find anything belt-like.


Hi, thats what I stuck in my last post. You have to download the file that the link I posted takes you to. You will get a handbook on how to make armor. Search through here and you will find the kidney belt eventually.

Can be found on romanarmytalk.com/rat as Nihonius Legio
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared B wrote:

Hi, thats what I stuck in my last post. You have to download the file that the link I posted takes you to. You will get a handbook on how to make armor. Search through here and you will find the kidney belt eventually.


If you're talking about what I think, Basic Armouring - A Practical Introduction to Armour Making by Paul Blackwell, then the the Kidney belt is quite specifically and SCAism. The SCA requires them (or something to cover the kidneys).

A kidney belt as depicted there bears no particular relation to Crusader era armour.

The nearest equivalent is styles of Coat of Plates that have plates that wrap around to the back around the kidneys.

For holding up the leg armour the preference seems to have been pointing them to hose, chausses or arming doublet.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Something like a war belt or what SCA calls kindney belt, was used in the teritory that is now Romania and it is still in use today as a part of traditional costume in the Transylvanian mountain region. It is called "chimir" and it is made from hardened leather (usually cow leather) and sometimes reinforced with large metal studs. Some models are highly decorated ant it is presumed that the chimir has evolved from roman and dacian war belts. It was worn together with a sort of light leather paded vest called "pieptar" by the peasant levy.



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