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Michael S. Rivet





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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2009 10:47 am    Post subject: Rain Guard on XXII.1         Reply with quote

Anyone have pics of how this, or other similar, metal rain guards are attached? From the angle shown in Records the whole apparatus just looks . . . weird.

Last edited by Michael S. Rivet on Mon 09 Feb, 2009 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Pikula
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Michael, I am not sure what rain guard you are talking about because none of the Type XX swords in Records have rain guards..... do you have a page number?
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Rivet-

It's easier to get help if you provide some more information such as the photo from Records. This way, we don't have to go to our books to help you and those who do not own the book, or are unwilling to do the leg work for you, can at least add to the conversation with helpful commentary or pointers to other similar swords.

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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Might you mean XXII.1 ?
Thanks,
Dan



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Michael S. Rivet





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PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2009 8:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doggone it. Yeah, I meant XXII.1. For lack of an "I" a thread dies. Lemmee see if I can fix that in the subject line. There we go. Fixed.

I didn't attach the picture because it's in the features section. Thanks, Dan, for taking care of that for me.

It's got a sort of metal rain guard-ly thing. I can't for the life of me visualize how that would fit over a scabbard or even attach to the cross. It's just an all-around odd hilt.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are several threads about chappes/rain guards here. As far as I know, metal guards (and most leather ones) are simply folded over the cross. Leather guards can be stitched to an extension of the grip wrap but I'm not sure what a metal guard would need, assuming it's beneath the wood of the grip. That should be plenty effective keeping it in place (see ROTMS for clearer and simpler example, with one side of the guard broken off). Contemporary artwork shows a few different forms, as discussed elsewhere on this site. The example in question here appears to be an elaborately shaped and decorated metal version of the type shaped like a clam shell. As for fit, it slides down over the scabbard, like a cap on a pen (albeit with open sides).

Looking more closely, I think the sword has the usual leather chappe, but with the little gorget-shaped plate(s) stitched to it. I think I see stitching holes in the edge of the metal, and the edges of the leather chappe behind.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I had to make this chappe and had no other photos or information other than the one attached above, I think I'd do something like this. It's about 90 percent wild guess. In my design, the metal plate is on the outside only.


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chappe.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Michael S. Rivet





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PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I know there are threads about raid guards here. Too many. I was having no luck whittling down the search results to get to this particular information. Not everyone is a genius with search terms. Although that's a spelling of "chappe" I didn't try yet.

So you think that's plated leather, eh? Hard to say from a black and white photograph. I'd still like a picture showing what's going on with the cross under there, if anyone's got one.

This is one of those swords that's either hideous or gorgeous. I'm not sure which, but it's one or the other.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This sword has a rain guard that looks similar to what Sean is describing.


Click photograph to see the higher-resolution detailed version



And then there is this example which is very elaborate but perhaps not related to this discussion:

Italian Sword, circa 1454:



Click any photograph to see the higher-resolution detailed version

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a better photo of the sword:

Kaiser Siegmund and Kaiser Fredrich III, circa 1430/40



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2swords.jpg
Kunsthistorisches Museum
A49, A142


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rainguard.jpg
Rainguard closeup

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D. Austin
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That rainguard does indeed seem to have a gorget shaped plate on it as Sean described. Does anyone know if it has one on the other side of the hilt? If so, I wonder if it is one piece of metal covering both sides or if it's two, joined by soldering or by leather. One piece is certainly an option, as shown on that (very) elaborate Italian sword that Nathan posted pictures of, but I'd imagine would be difficult to make in that shape.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Feb, 2009 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahhh, much clearer. Thanks, Nathan! What I thought were holes for stitching appear to be rivets. That suggests that there's something under there--leather? Still can't tell if the reverse has the same treatment.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is catalogue text on that sword. Maybe it will shed light on the rainguard's construction. Hopefully one of our German-speaking readers can translate it.


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Happy

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Peter Rieder




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2009 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As the text is rather long, forgive my translating only the relevant part:

"...Rain leather covered with silver and gold-plated brass..."

The word "beschlagen" suggests a method utilizing rivets to cover the leather with metal.
Interestingly enough, both handle and quillons are described to be covered with horn...

Cheers, Peter

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Rieder wrote:
As the text is rather long, forgive my translating only the relevant part:

"...Rain leather covered with silver and gold-plated brass..."

The word "beschlagen" suggests a method utilizing rivets to cover the leather with metal.
Interestingly enough, both handle and quillons are described to be covered with horn...

Cheers, Peter


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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