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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 7:49 am    Post subject: Does the dagger penetrate a plate armour?         Reply with quote

Does the dagger penetrate a plate armour?

I saw the picture that a dagger penetrated an armour in "Jorg Wilhalm Cod. I.6.4. (23r, 23v, 24v)".
In 23r, 23v, 24v, a dagger penetrates the opponent's armour.
Please distinguish it with an original large photos.

23r
http://media.bibliothek.uni-augsburg.de:8081/node?id=37251

23v
http://media.bibliothek.uni-augsburg.de:8081/node?id=37252

24v
http://media.bibliothek.uni-augsburg.de:8081/node?id=37254

When he swung down a dagger with one hand, can he penetrate the opponent's armour?
(I think "he should attacks the eye-slit of the visor".)

I saw the picture similar with 24v in "Mair, Paul Hector: De arte athletica II(281v)".
281v
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00...iveno=281v
I seem to insert a blade in the side of the visor perpendicularly.
Please teach how I can kill opponent after this?

other question...

In this case, what part of the opponent should I attack?
280v
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00...iveno=280v

Is there the site where explanation of these skill appears in?

sorry., my English is very poor ^^;



 Attachment: 63.98 KB
daggerar.jpg

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks to me in most of them that the dagger is going between the plates. Tha last few in particular are going between the neck lames on the one and the visor/skull on the second. The other is a bit harder as it does indeed look like it is piercing the neck plate of the bascinet which is solid and has no lames on the front or back. Does it have any text? That'd be the clearest way of getting a solid answer.

RPM
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sir-I all my reading the visor is pushed up, or the straps holding the helm and gorget cut, prior to stabbing the throat or eyes. Stabbing through the eyeslits is possible if they are large enough and the dagger is slim enough, I suppose. Some mesericords (mercy dagger) were slim and triangular, like a rat-tail file. They had little or no edge, just a re-inforced point.. They could be pushed between plates, but I never heard of one that could be pushed into plate. Mail is a different story, the moslen cultures had a fighting knife,the kard, that had the point built up to where it could burst mail links, espically if one or more were weak.Western European armourers could not temper drawn wire as well as the Middle Eastern and Jappanese armourers could.If you can get a copy, George Cameron Stone annotates these subjects and weapons extensively in his "Glossary of the Construction,Decoration, and Use of Arms and armour". He was a professional metallurgist whose hobby was arms and armour and he wrote in the 1930"s, when it was still possible to discuss the making of armour and weapons with men who did it by the traditional methods, espically in Japan.I would say, therefore that some of these picture are exaggerated,to say the least, but not all. Cutting helmet straps, stabbing eyeslits, and pushing the point Between plates sound good to me.
Ja68ms
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

Randall has the right of it. Master Sigmund Ringeck told us how to attack a man in armor:
"If you want to place an attack at a place on a prepared man, then you must detect his openings quickly. First attempt to attack him in the face, but also under the shoulders, in the palms of the hands or from the rear in the gloves, or in the hollows of the knee, between his legs and to all the members there, where the amour has his joints inside. Because it is best to attack him at these places. And you should know exactly how you can attack those openings, so that you do not aim at a further one if you can attack a closer one more easily. Practice that with all weapons which belong to the fight."

A better example of the way this is done in Unterhalten (lit. "holding down," but it refers to all grappling and dagger ground work) can be seen here from Master Hans Talhoffer's 1449 Ambraser Codex:
http://jfgilles.club.fr/escrime/bibliotheque/...es/036.jpg
In this plate you can clearly see the winner (his name was Leutold von Königsegg) pulling up his opponent's bevor to stab into his throat, killing him.

So in the Wilhalm and Mair examples you're just seeing someone stabbing into the gaps in the armor which the artist hasn't drawn as carefully as he should have. Most medieval art shows an idealized version of armor with far fewer gaps than the real stuff had.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd agree and say that the pictures depict attacks at gaps/spaces in the armor.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
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"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Between plates or forced between lames or under the overlapping plates like under a gorget I think.

Actual piercing plate would be hard to impossible to do if the plate was high quality.

Even maille can be difficult to pierce but a very slim and narrow blade forced under an armpit would hurt a lot even if only an inch or two of blade got through a broken link or simply long and narrow enough to be pushed into the body even if no links where broken.

Anyway, an opponent sufficiently incapacitated for one to basically be tortured by a blade point like this would be equally unable to prevent the lifting of his visor or killed through his visor.

I'm assuming an opponent being held down by very good wresting techniques or too exhausted to put up much of a fight or already incapacitated by a heavy blunt object like a poleaxe or warhammer i.e. semiconscious.

An opponent still standing and actively fighting can and should be able to protect his more vulnerable areas by using his own weapons i.e. won't just stand there letting you find a gap in his armour.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James R.Fox wrote:
Western European armourers could not temper drawn wire as well as the Middle Eastern and Jappanese armourers could.If you can get a copy, George Cameron Stone annotates these subjects and weapons extensively in his "Glossary of the Construction,Decoration, and Use of Arms and armour". He was a professional metallurgist whose hobby was arms and armour and he wrote in the 1930"s, when it was still possible to discuss the making of armour and weapons with men who did it by the traditional methods, espically in Japan.I would say, therefore that some of these picture are exaggerated,to say the least, but not all. Cutting helmet straps, stabbing eyeslits, and pushing the point Between plates sound good to me.


That goes against everything I have read on the subject. European mail certainly seemed to be superior to middle eastern mail during the Crusades. I suspect since the 1930's they have learned a little more about it. I've never seen really good Japanese mail in fact, I've seen several antique Japanese armor panoplies from the 16th-17th centuries, all of which incorporated mail but it was a very thin butted wire with four to one links with a lot of open space between, suitible for some protection against slashing but I would say none against a thrust.

Also as far as I'm aware most mail wasn't tempered until the late Renaissance when it was considered a significant enhancement.

J

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for replies!

> Randall Moffett
> Does it have any text?
> That'd be the clearest way of getting a solid answer.
I cannot find the text. So I asked you a question on this forum.
Thanks ^^ Happy

> James R.Fox
> They could be pushed between plates, but I never heard of one that could be pushed into plate.
I was so, too. But...
-----------------------------------------------------
Spotlight: The Rondel Dagger
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_rondel.html
Rondel Daggers in Use
"The slim, long blades were capable of piercing mail and finding the small openings in the foe's plate armour."
-----------------------------------------------------
I read this and possibly intended... And I asked you a question on this forum.
(I mistook "penetrated holes" for "small openings") Wink

>I would say, therefore that some of these picture are exaggerated, to say the least, but not all.
Oh, that's exactly what I thought! (The pictures of the Middle Ages has lots exaggerated things...)

>Cutting helmet straps, stabbing eyeslits, and pushing the point Between plates sound good to me.
I think that these are good ways.
Thanks ^^ Happy

> Hugh Knight
> Talhoffer's 1449 Ambraser Codex:
> http://jfgilles.club.fr/escrime/bibliotheque/...es/036.jpg
I knew this site. However, there is not explanation... and I found other site.
http://www.schielhau.org/talhoffer1459_ac_duel.html
-------------------------------------------
tafel 36:
36. Hie hat er In erstochn. (original)
36. Here he has stabbed him. (translated)
-------------------------------------------
ummm, there is very little explanation. It is not written how he took off the opponent's helmet... Sad

> Most medieval art shows an idealized version of armor with far fewer gaps than the real stuff had.
I think so ^^;
Tkanks ^^ Happy

> JE Sarge
Thanks ^^ Happy

> Jean Thibodeau
Thank you for detailed explanation every time. ^^ Happy

> Jean Henri Chandler
Thanks ^^ Happy

p.s
I'm sorry. I cannot write detailed answers. (my English is very poor. >< Cry )
However, generally I understand that all of you wrote it.
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Max Chouinard




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I've seen several antique Japanese armor panoplies from the 16th-17th centuries, all of which incorporated mail but it was a very thin butted wire with four to one links with a lot of open space between, suitible for some protection against slashing but I would say none against a thrust.


There are many types of maille construction in Japan, but the thing is that they didn't had riveted maille, so they devised a method to solve the problem, that is making double rings with an harder material so that it roughly equals the same resistance.

Maxime Chouinard

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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Feb, 2009 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

****** Reference materials ******

I found "Jorg Wilhalm Cod. I.6.2.3"
Probably you already know this...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jorg Wilhalm Cod. I.6.4.5 (104images, 550MB)

http://media.bibliothek.uni-augsburg.de:8081/...fold=34537

* click [Hochaufgeloste Version herunterladen] to large image.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jorg Wilhalm Cod. I.6.2.3 (96images, 101MB)

http://media.bibliothek.uni-augsburg.de:8081/...fold=47410

* click [Hochaufgeloste Version herunterladen] to large image.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jorg Wilhalm Cod. I.6.2.2 I can't found...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jorg Wilhalm Cgm 3711 I can't found...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jorg Wilhalm Cgm 3712 I can't found...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Wilhalm
MS Cgm 3711 is peculiar in that some of the fencers are represented in humorous carnival costumes.

humorous carnival costumes... Eek!
Mmmmm, I am interested very much.
Where can I watch it?

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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J Gerg




Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Feb, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Armor when forged usually has weak points, and most of these weak points occur where plates swing and bend, the pictures look like hes jabbing between the plates or in the case of the helm shot, I'm sure hitting them in that spot may pierce the armor like a can, but there is probably a huge risk of slipping on the rounded surface of most helms, and a spot like eye slots, hip joint, or armpit would be easier.

However they did issue some daggers in japan with a small mallet, i couldn't ever really see the purpose of this except to take out a down armored opponent?

Venienti occurrite morbo.
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Andreas Auer




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

just last week i was on a fighting in Armour Workshop...and Ringeck also told to "put the dagger in the Backplate" where it is softer and thinner than in the front...and i think a rondel dagger is made to put maximum force to its point so i think after this workshop it is no problem to get through thin Backplates or Mail...

Andreas

The secret is,
to keep that pointy end thingy away from you...
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Josh Warren




Location: Manhattan, Kansas
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2009 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andreas Auer wrote:
...and Ringeck also told to "put the dagger in the Backplate" where it is softer and thinner than in the front...

Interesting. Can you find this exact quote from Ringeck?

Non Concedo
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andreas Auer wrote:
just last week i was on a fighting in Armour Workshop...and Ringeck also told to "put the dagger in the Backplate" where it is softer and thinner than in the front...and i think a rondel dagger is made to put maximum force to its point so i think after this workshop it is no problem to get through thin Backplates or Mail...


With respect, there is no dagger instruction in Ringeck at all except one play in his Roßfechten material where he says you can grab your opponent's dagger and stab him, but he doesn't specify where or how or say anything else about it.

Moreover, no source I've ever read talks about stabbing through plate. Ringeck is actually very particular about where you should attack, and it's always to the gaps in the harness:
"The opening of one who is armored:
If you want to place an attack at a place on a prepared man, then you must detect his openings quickly. First attempt to attack him in the face, but also under the shoulders, in the palms of the hands or from the rear in the gloves, or in the hollows of the knee, between his legs and to all the members there, where the amour has his joints inside. Because it is best to attack him at these places. And you should know exactly how you can attack those openings, so that you do not aim at a further one if you can attack a closer one more easily. Practice that with all weapons which belong to the fight."

The other big source we have for this is in the von Danzig Fechtbuch, and he says almost the same thing verbatim:
"This is the text and analysis on how you seek the openings on an armored man.
'Leather and gloves under the eyes seek the openings rightly'
Analysis: Mark that where the armored man is best overcome is through the harness that is under the face or under the shoulders or in the hollow of the hand or on the arms behind the gloves or in the knee hollows or below to the soles of the feet and in the joints of the arm and between the legs and in the knowledge that his harness has joints..."

I'm afraid you may have misunderstood whomever led your workshop, or else he was misinformed.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

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PostPosted: Sat 21 Feb, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for replies!

****** Reference materials ******

I found "Ringeck Fechtbuch Mscr.Dresd.C487"
Probably you already know this...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ringeck Fechtbuch Mscr.Dresd.C487 (PDF, 48.9MB)
http://digital.slub-dresden.de/sammlungen/wer...0775717/0/
* click "Gesamtwerk als PDF herunterladen..." to save PDF file.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all Happy

Quote:
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Wilhalm
MS Cgm 3711 is peculiar in that some of the fencers are represented in humorous carnival costumes.

humorous carnival costumes... Eek!
Mmmmm, I am interested very much.
Where can I watch it?


I found "Jorg Wilhalm Cgm 3711". Happy


http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0006/bsb0...;seite=170

thanks ^^

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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