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Fernando P




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: 13 Jan 2009

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 11:19 am    Post subject: Help! Germanic warrior-knight 13th century         Reply with quote

Hello everybody,
This one is my first post. Sorry if this topic has been discused before, the point is I have no time to check it out one by one trying to pick up the useful information for me. Also I will ask you for patience to me, I am a newie over all these and I am not so good with the English. Thank you!

First I would be glad to talk about belts. I've read on the net, it says that there is a belt. I've seen some pictures on re-enactment groups and also those pipe bands like corvus corax. They have similar broad belts.




Is said that around 4th century it was found this piece of the Legionary belt, and it's known Gladiators used them before. A blacksmith in spain says those kind of belts existed and were used to protect the abdomen and the soldier's back due the armor's weight they carried on. Since romans or before, till the day which armors fell into desuse.



link: http://www.roman-artifacts.com/Military%20Acc...20belt.htm

By the way, the net says also it was found among romans and also among the british and germanic tribes which surrounded the edges of the Roman empire. Those belts seems fully decorated, with gold, many kind of metals and horsehair may be, probably it had a kind of meaning for Romans and others too. Finally, arround the 12th century born the Dutchy of Saxony and then The Ottonians which had something to do with a Holy Roman Empire (or to bring back the roman empire to europe may be?) around 13th century. (see the picture the guy behind the king holding a sword)



What could you tell me about these kind of belts? I know that probably the bands use such as a fantasy accesory. The truth is that I see them as eye-catched piece but, How truth is really (or official enough to suppor a serius re-enactment group) in all these?

Then I will go on with other points in the same topic.

Regards,
Fernando

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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Tue 13 Jan, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The guy behind the king in your photo appears to be wearing a sash, so I am unsure. It could be a belt though...

I know that such belts are portrayed in art and frescos of gladiators by the Romans. They offered protection for the kidneys and abdomen on a very basic level, although I don't feel that they would stand up too well against a thrust in the arena. I've personally speculated that perhaps these were merely decorative items rather than having an actual armor quality - ie, to make the gladiator look leaner. This, of course, is merely conjecture on my part. The legionary belt in your link seems like it would have more of a protective property with the plates than leather alone. I am sure that other area tribes would have adopted this for their own use.



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gladiatorfresco.jpg


J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Fernando P




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: 13 Jan 2009

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jan, 2009 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

mhm... That is the problem with drawings in Codexs, sometimes is inposible know exactly what is every single thing depicted there.

My question is pointed if those kind of belts did exist arround 13th century among the germanic warriors or knights. I guess if they were used to protect the back against the armor's weight, they should be used under the chainmail probably? So, nobody would see it really, hehe.

My other questions are about:

2) Heraldics (Specially Wyvern)

3) Heraldic art over typical war clothing and non typical,

4) a brigandine or gambeson, or a kind leather chaquet used over the chainmail till early 15th century, could it be?

5) And the art and crafts with metals: jewellery, brooches, buckles, art in weapons, etc... Where can I get information about?

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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,264

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jan, 2009 4:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fernando P wrote:
mhm... That is the problem with drawings in Codexs, sometimes is inposible know exactly what is every single thing depicted there.

My question is pointed if those kind of belts did exist arround 13th century among the germanic warriors or knights. I guess if they were used to protect the back against the armor's weight, they should be used under the chainmail probably? So, nobody would see it really, hehe.


If they are used because of chainmail then they are used to remove the weight from the upper back or shoulders and then they have to be on the mail to push the mail against hips and relieve the upper parts. I use a belt for that but not that broad belt.
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Fernando P




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: 13 Jan 2009

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jan, 2009 5:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I meant. I would use probalby a broad belt under the chain and a common one over. If that belt would be correct for that period. What would be the best combination?

Broad belt under chainmail, and the common one over ?

The common one under chainmail and the broad one over?

My other questions are about:

2) Heraldics (Specially Wyvern)

3) Heraldic art over typical war clothing and non typical,

4) a brigandine or gambeson, or a kind leather chaquet used over the chainmail till early 15th century, could it be?

5) And the art and crafts with metals: jewellery, brooches, buckles, art in weapons, etc... Where can I get information about?

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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jan, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is some general knowledge of heraldic symbols being used in late 12th century. Regarding dragons, William Marshal chose a red dragon over a shield with split vertical fields of green and yellow. He did so on when promoted to banneret. Eagles were more common among forces and leaders of the Germanic Holy Roman Empire. They can be seen in illuminated manuscripts not far from your period such as the saga of Enide. Many Germanic warriors adopted their liege lords' (more than one obligation was typical, with multiple devices on the same shield) devices upon shields. Personal designs were sometimes put upon tunics (covering the center area of the mail). Value of the tunics (sometimes decorated with pearls and jewels, made from precious fabric) could exceed the value of most of the other equipment. When placed under the command of a knight banneret (leader and rallying point for successive charges) at short notice scarfs were sometimes affixed at the shoulder area or sometimes on the horse barding. (Multiple accounts of this practice for melee tournament exists such as in the autobiography of Ulrich Von Lichtenstein, and some inventories of the scarves made for an English tournament.) This made team identification possible, even when formed up with unfamiliar allies on short notice in chaotic situations. The more long term personal devices put on barding were small pendants or "livery badges", several artifacts still surviving from roughly 13th century era.

Hopefully that gives you a starting point.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posts: 2,264

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jan, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fernando P wrote:
I meant. I would use probalby a broad belt under the chain and a common one over. If that belt would be correct for that period. What would be the best combination?

Broad belt under chainmail, and the common one over ?

The common one under chainmail and the broad one over?



Again, I think there is no point in wearing a broad or any other belt under the mail. Only on the mail so that it carries the weight of the mail. If someone thinks other way, correct me.
And for the second question, I'm sorry, but I know close to nothing about heraldics.
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Fernando P




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: 13 Jan 2009

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 15 Jan, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The point is that you don't use a broad belt to share the armor's weight. You would use it to hold your back and position, as gym force belts, due all your body is carring arround 40 kg or more during long periods of time, that makes your position get affected, and that could probably caused you a damage in your back.

That is the reason why I am thinking it should be used under the chainmail, if you use any belt over the chain you hold its weight over the waist and shoulders in first place.

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