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K. Horton




Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Joined: 21 Jan 2008

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue 23 Dec, 2008 2:06 pm    Post subject: Swords George Silver would endorse         Reply with quote

Good day Gentlemen,

I have opened up my George Silver(and others of the period) file again, due to my recurring interest in my English martial heritage and wanting a change of pace. I was wanting to know if any of you would post pictures or point me in the direction of some swords that George Silver would say....that's a good sword! I have checked the archives, maybe I missed something or didn't know the right words to search. In my study, I have only touched on this particular period a little and frankly..don't know much about it. Hence this post.

All comments, pictures, books or articles recommended are appreciated.

Many Thanks,

Ken
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,750

PostPosted: Tue 23 Dec, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the easy answer - Silver despised the Mediterranean thrust-based style of fencing that was becoming popular in England in his time, so he would have frowned on a rapier and preferred what we might call a broadsword or a cut & thrust.

No doubt there are some Silver historians out there who can provide a much more precise answer.
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 386

PostPosted: Wed 24 Dec, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Basically any cut and thrust sword, backsword, broadsword etc of British make from the mid to late 16th (or even early 17th century).

Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sat 27 Dec, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe the original poster was hoping for images of such swords as Silver would have liked... and here some are.


http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/498.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/499.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/549.html

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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K. Horton




Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Joined: 21 Jan 2008

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat 27 Dec, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes,
This is what I was after, the other info is also accurate. I have been doing a lot of looking myself and
was looking for a sword that was undoubtedly English. Any cut and thrust with a knuckle guard is what
Silver was originally talking about although there seems to be a lot more of the basket hilts being
reproduced. Would a mortuary hilt be the same as what Silver was talking about? Hanawei makes a
Cromwell sword that looks pretty nice, and various makers have a Scottish basket hilts but nothing
else really that is English. Can some one direct me?

Wouldn't George Silvers sword be in a museum in England somewhere? Very curious Confused

I see that A&A has the Town Guard sword of the same period....it says it is German..how different can
they be really.

Ken
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Sat 27 Dec, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great question for me being quite a WMA ignoramus! I will look forward to hearing more.

I have Mazanksy's book but there is very little pictorially on the blades.

Many thanks

Jason
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

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PostPosted: Sat 27 Dec, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

K. Horton wrote:
Wouldn't George Silvers sword be in a museum in England somewhere? Very curious Confused


Maybe, maybe not. Unless if there is something concrete to identify it as George Silver's sword, we will never know. Besides which, George Silver was not necessarily that famous in period. Certainly not a nobody, but much of his modern popularity in the modern English speaking world has to do with the fact that it was one of the first discovered historical fencing treatises that was written in English.

Quote:
I see that A&A has the Town Guard sword of the same period....it says it is German..how different can
they be really.


Not very. Happy When it comes down to it, a sword is a sword. Some thrust better, some cut better, but they all follow similar principles. If you want a sword to fit George Silver's style, then find one that follows exactly what he describes in his treatise. Figure out what length you need based on his perfect length measurement, make sure it can both cut and thrust decently, make sure it has hand protection, etc. After that, pick whatever sword you like. Happy It could be an Italian schiavona, but as long as it follows George Silver's rules, then it will be functional for his system.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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K. Horton




Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Joined: 21 Jan 2008

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat 27 Dec, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Bill!
Did the Scottish just stake more of claim on the basket hilts than the English? Most repros seem to carry the title Scottish basket hilt, I know they were prevelant in England as well but not a whole lot of publicity?
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 386

PostPosted: Sun 28 Dec, 2008 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

K. Horton wrote:
Thanks Bill!
Did the Scottish just stake more of claim on the basket hilts than the English? Most repros seem to carry the title Scottish basket hilt, I know they were prevelant in England as well but not a whole lot of publicity?


No, but even the English seem to have been giving the Scots credit for being the first to make basket hilts (or just the first to fully appreciate the genius of them) since they were being "Irish" hilts in England allready at the end of the 16th century. In Scotland they quickly gained the name "Heland" hilts as they were very popular with the Highland clans.
English and Scottish basket hilts are not very different but there are some details that are give aways...

Today there are more Scottish basket hilt repros available because unlike the English the Scots are more attached to the basket hilt as a nationalistic symbol and because there are more people with Scots ancestry that go about basket hilts than there are people with English ancestry. You must also keep in mind the basket hilt never fell out of use as a part of Scottish military uniform, and therefor has kept it's fame as something typically Scottish.

I see that people like Steven Hand, author of some Silver interpretation books and member of this forum, uses mortuary hilts when they interpret Silver. You would probably do equally fine with any english basket hilt, late 16th century riding sword or a proto mortuary. And I would suggest you contact either Darkwood armoury or Armour Class as they will have what you're looking for.

Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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K. Horton




Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Joined: 21 Jan 2008

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun 28 Dec, 2008 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik,
That is some excellent insight for me and answers my questions as to why mostly basket hilts are Scottish. What weapon would you say is a nationalistic weapon for England?Cutlass? Just your opinion of course.
Ken
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sun 28 Dec, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

K. Horton wrote:
Yes,
This is what I was after, the other info is also accurate. I have been doing a lot of looking myself and
was looking for a sword that was undoubtedly English. Any cut and thrust with a knuckle guard is what
Silver was originally talking about although there seems to be a lot more of the basket hilts being
reproduced. Would a mortuary hilt be the same as what Silver was talking about? Hanawei makes a
Cromwell sword that looks pretty nice, and various makers have a Scottish basket hilts but nothing
else really that is English. Can some one direct me?



Hello Ken. Fist, a knuckle Guard isn't enough. You need a basket. The difference, if you aren't aware, is that a knuckle duster guard is only on bar thick, and only goes before the front of the sword. The Basket protects the whole hand.

Now, the Scottish Basket is a particular style of basket hilt, and has a number of differences from an english basket hilt. I'm not educated enough on basket hilts in general to tell you all of the differences with authority.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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