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Alfonso Asensio




Location: Tokyo
Joined: 31 May 2007

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Matching Dagger for type XVa         Reply with quote

Hello

I was wondering if anybody could give me an indication of the type of dagger that would be historically correct to be carried with a type XVa sword( it is actually the albion Agincourt) and also what would be the proper fastening system to the belt(directly, one strap, two, etc). I understand rondel daggers would be appropriated but that design does not do it for me so I wonder if there are alternative models.

If there is any recommendation for a supplier working these type of weapons, that information would also be very welcome

Thank you
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd say you haven't found the right rondel Wink

well, other hilt styles could be used on a 'rondel-style' blade (i.e. the typical triangular profile, single sharpened edge, stout point) - but both the rondel dagger and the longsword usually wouldn't be carried together outside of a martial context (i.e. battle or duel).

Now there are definitely other knife and dagger styles that fit in the period of the Type XVa - bollock daggers and the Aunlaz dagger by arms and armour are examples, and a relatively simple cruciform-hilt probably would work too. There are also more utilitarian 'every day' knives, but I imagine these aren't what you are interested in.

What sort of context are you shooting for in your presentation?

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Alfonso Asensio




Location: Tokyo
Joined: 31 May 2007

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, mostly was the desire to have a complete "hanging set" (belt, sword, dagger, maybe a pouch later on if adecuated) but it will definitely set in a martial context. Maybe something a man-at-arms may be carrying during the 100 year war while on campaign if not battle.
Reading your mail it seems that the blade of the dagger should be thick, thin and pointed as if to be used against plate, so would a wide bladed dagger not be adecuated?
Maybe you are right about rondel daggers and I need to find the right one but cruciform-hilt ones sounds very interesting, do you happen to know any example out there I could use as a reference?

No bollock daggers please, I rather have a butter knife! Happy

Thanks again
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Gordon Clark




Location: Purcellville, VA
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ballock daggers can be very cool. This is a custom one from Justin King...

I used to think they were funky as well, but now this is one of my favorite pieces.

Gordon



 Attachment: 113.45 KB
HiltAngle.JPG

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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ballock daggers can indeed be very cool.
My replica ballock dagger by Arma Bohemia:







From Arma Bohemia's website:





It's based off this one from the Museum fur Duetsche Geschichte:



Photo by Arma Bohemia


Photo by Arma Bohemia

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alfonso Asensio wrote:
Well, mostly was the desire to have a complete "hanging set" (belt, sword, dagger, maybe a pouch later on if adecuated) but it will definitely set in a martial context. Maybe something a man-at-arms may be carrying during the 100 year war while on campaign if not battle.
Reading your mail it seems that the blade of the dagger should be thick, thin and pointed as if to be used against plate, so would a wide bladed dagger not be adecuated?
Maybe you are right about rondel daggers and I need to find the right one but cruciform-hilt ones sounds very interesting, do you happen to know any example out there I could use as a reference?

No bollock daggers please, I rather have a butter knife! Happy

Thanks again


Against someone in plate, a stout, pointed blade is all that is required. This can be the ice-pick style, the isosceles triangle type, or even a double edged type (a type XVa is just a big version of this). On the other hand, there are advantages to having one side dull - especially if you look at some of the dagger combat techniques from that period, but with some variation you could do them with a double edged dagger as well.

This cruciform dagger is apparently based on a 15th C example from a private collection. I imagine you could ask for more specifics if you wanted: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/dagg225.html

I forgot to mention the H-shaped handle ones too - but I can't find an example right off hand. They have a similar hilt profile to a rondel, but rather than have discs, it has two flat sections at the cross and pommel area. I have only seen clear examples of this in civilian contexts though.

As a note - even if on campaign, I doubt a man at arms would always be wearing his sword (many places frowned on this, though of course invading armies probably didn't care), though he may wear the dagger as a status symbol (and for protection). He would also probably have something more like a 'utility' knife for day to day tasks. My rondel (pics here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=90717 ) and unless I am mistaken, the bollock dagger posted as well, are very definitely meant for martial purposes. I really wouldn't be slicing cheese or rope with mine - the blade just isn't meant for it... getting into gaps in armour is a totally different story.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The H-shaped ones (or call Žem Baselards) are very neat indeed Wink
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks felix! I had forgotten the name as well.
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Alfonso Asensio




Location: Tokyo
Joined: 31 May 2007

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue 09 Dec, 2008 12:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:
The H-shaped ones (or call Žem Baselards) are very neat indeed Wink



Hello Felix, can I ask where did you buy that one? I think I have just fallen in love with that dagger.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Dec, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That would be here: http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/baselardstwo.php

Home page: http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/

Good reputation for customer service by the way.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Reading list: 25 books

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Posts: 555

PostPosted: Tue 09 Dec, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, Jean is correct. That also is the particular piece Tod made for me. By the way, it is the companion of my Albion Fiore. So the same blade type as your Agincourt.
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