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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Good example! Find similarity! :) Reply to topic
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 7:20 am    Post subject: Good example! Find similarity! :)         Reply with quote

Hi!

I would like to consult with you. I am intersting in foil. There are some pictures. I think this is an Italian type but it is announced as a Spain. Tha is a question. Even I was confused by the presence of screws on the Guard.
What is this? Snap off and attached the arc?
Whether the screws used in such structures?
Thank you for you help in advance!

Igor.



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Last edited by Igor A. on Thu 23 Oct, 2008 6:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would consider this an Italian guard--it is symmetric and fits the form of the Italian-style foil guard. Nowadays, the screws used to fix the bell to the arches would usually be replaced by spot-welds.

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Steve!

Thank you for answer. I would think the same.
When do you think this style of hilt was most usable? To my understanding this about XIX cent., not earlier or I am mistaken?

By the way I like site of Seven Hearts. I found there some really intersting information for me.
Igor.
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here some more pictures of this foil. Happy

Igor



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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Igor A. wrote:
Hi Steve!

Thank you for answer. I would think the same.
When do you think this style of hilt was most usable? To my understanding this about XIX cent., not earlier or I am mistaken?

By the way I like site of Seven Hearts. I found there some really interesting information for me.
Igor.


These hilts are a development of the rapier cup hilt, that is with the ricasso, but there isn't exactly a specific time in history when it stopped being a cup-hilt rapier and started being an Italian dueling sword hilt. However, by 1800, the sword pictured was definitely in existence (albeit, with a heavier blade). This hilt style has survived to modern day fencing, although it is rarely used. It is still legal according to FIE rules, and if you go to some salles, this is what you will use--most notably, the Classical Fencing Program at San Jose State University.

I'm glad you found our site useful. Feel free to stop by our forum and ask questions.

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 1:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Steve!

Thank you for reply. Just why I am intersting in it. I would like to buy this foil, but no chance to see it personally. Only via mail and based on photos. Man who sell it told me that after carefull look it looks like screws were from the beginning.
But foil is ssold as antique. That means that it should be older than 100 years.
The question is could screws be used in the beginning of 20th sentury or not?

Here is some description.
Overall length - 1070 mm, the length of the blade - 900 mm, cup - round, diameter - 110 mm, cup reserved for cross bows to hold two fingers screw. A cup is covered with floral design, floral design covered the first 130 mm blade. Grip handle - wood, a soft light wood, blade is ended with screw pommel, in which cross-drilled hole.
Drawing on the cup Rapier suffered way of acid etching, surface
cup and handle is covered with galvanized metal way to yellow
partially erased. Blade nickel-plated, nickel lost seats.

The foil was bought in the USA. Now costs about 1300 USD.
Not so snall money. Happy
But I like it, especially floral ornament.
Unfortunately there is no any visible signes or stamps on blade or hilt.

Any comments are invited!
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have no idea about the age of this particular weapon, so other than the general history of Italian Foils, I really can't give you any advice. (My experience is from the point of view of a fencer rather than a collector, so I just don't have the requisite knowledge.)

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Any comments are invited!         Reply with quote

Thank you Steve!

No probleb! Happy Any way this will be a decision of my own to by or not by!
May somebody else on forum has any ideas.
So any welcome!!!

Igor Happy
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William V.




Location: Germany
Joined: 14 Jan 2008

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello there.

I may add some additional information:
Yes the foil is italian (at least the style). On the spanish ones the quillons (the arches) are normally asymetric to allow a
different grip on the handle and to leave space for the thumb.
The screws may be authentic. I own a piece from around the turn of the century with screws too. BUT without inspection of the weapon itself it is nearly impossible to say if they are original or not.
In regard of the provenance: Spain (and especially Toledo) has (and may be still producing) cheap weapons as a kind of souvenir, relying on their well known steel and forges. Those "fakes" are very common and can be found very often on ebay. I won't speak of their collectors value here....
Those "fake"-weapons often have bright colours plus floral patterns on the guard and blade.... . So the way I see it, the weapon you are so interested in is one of those souvenir-pieces. The only thing that doesn't fit are the screws, because on the more modern versions the quillons are indeed (as already stated) spot-weldet to the guard.

BUT: the price is absolutely ridiculous!!! 1300 USD? You may find pieces equal to this one for below 100 USD on ebay or other platforms dealing with fencing weapons. And they may not have the shadow of doubt about their age....

My advice: Whatever you do, compare prices!

All the best

William
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi William!

Thank you for answer. That is a question. This foil uggested one of the antique shop. They persist that this kind of foil is at least dated to beginning of the last century.
Though I agree that price is too big. In France in armory shop I saw a pair of french epee dated to the beginning of the last century. So they were 100 Euro each.

I think the price is so high because the shop in the far East of Russia - Vladivostol.
Actually even in the cities like Moscow and Saint-Petersburg that kind of arms are quite expensive.

By the way you are fro Germany. From what part?
I would like to find some good old armor (real or replicas) shops in Munich or in near cities. May be you know some of them?

Thank you in advance!

Igor.
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William V.




Location: Germany
Joined: 14 Jan 2008

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, my accent gave me away, hm? Wink

In regard to the weapon we've been talking about:
The shop is absolutely wrong! Weapons like these (I'm talking about real weapons, for sport fencing) are still available but due to the fact that barely anybody fences italian foils anymore in competition the production of these weapons has reclinded. Nevertheless, there are still some distributors who sell these foils (and italian epees too), one of them is
Negrini in Verona (you may google the name, they have a very good online shop).
If you are looking for an "antique" piece I would recommend to check regularly on ebay. I would guess that a lot of these couloured souvenir pieces were produced in the 1950's and 60's. They are appearing relatively often.

Back to my heavy accent Wink
I'm from the western part near Cologne. I've visited Munich some times but I can't give you advice for shops on historical weapons there. Sorry. If you want to get medieval swords and armour you might check out:

Fun 4 U at Dachauer Str. 42, München

You might get medieval reenactment stuff there, but I won't take any responsibility, I've just googled it Wink
But perhaps they can help you there.

So far

William
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi William!

Not really accent! Wink Just "location" on the left side Happy
Thank you for advice. I will be in Munich in the beginning of November. So I will try to find some time to visit this shop.
As to foil it looks like you are right.
So necessary think if it worth to buy it for such price or not. Exclamation
Thank you.

Igor.
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 23 Oct, 2008 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi William!

Visited Negrini online shop. Here are some pictures.
Is it something familiar? Happy
So except floral ornament and a blade (here is an epee blade Exclamation ) other are almost the same. Ecpesially arches. But no screws. Happy
Taking ab account that Negrini is since 1897..., hm....it might be Wink
By the way seller haas already told that it is not 100 years old but may be 50 years.
So you might be absolutely right talking about 50's - 60's.

By for now!

Igor



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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 23 Oct, 2008 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is me again!

Just compared two pictires. Look at the red circles!
Look the same or not.......? Razz
I gues yes!

So looks like the same components.

Igor.



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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 23 Oct, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi All!

Thank everybody who helped me in making decision! Happy I hope I am on right way!
I think this theme we can close.

If you have any other comments you can send them directly to my box.

By for now.

Igor Happy
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Fri 31 Oct, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Good example! Find similarity! :)         Reply with quote

Igor,
Why do your photos have erase marks?
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Igor A.




Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 20 Oct 2008

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun 02 Nov, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Good example! Find similarity! :)         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
Igor,
Why do your photos have erase marks?


Hi!

Just not to harm seller. For myself I did decision to buy or not to buy.

These pictures you can find in the enternet if you go through 10th russian on-line shops.
Did I answer you? Happy

___________________________
+ARS LONGA, VITA BREVIS+
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Good example! Find similarity! :)         Reply with quote

I wonder if you have any full picture of your swords, Igor.
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