Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Getting in the mindset of our ancestors Reply to topic
This is a Spotlight Topic  
Author Message
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,524

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 1:35 am    Post subject: Getting in the mindset of our ancestors         Reply with quote

Apologies for this thread starting in a rather odd way, but Nathan and I were having a mail conversation that was getting rather interesting and we though it would be good to pass it out to the floor to see what others thought. Because of this we are starting little way into a conversation.

Roughly the point which this conversation brought up was this: As a maker or a user of ancient objects do the makers/users desires/mistakes/obsessions/skills/experiences etc ever distinctly show in the objects. Can we have an insight into our past by our own insights into an object.

Have a read and see if we have sparked any thoughts........

Quote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
I'm really thrilled to see the types of things you make. You're making items that others aren't. For me, that's work a giant congratulations. I'm not sure if others aren't willing to tackle them or if they're simply not able to find the customers to pay for them. Either way, it's great to see the variety of your work.


Quote:
Leo Todeschini wrote:
As for variety, I think I get bored easily and I like to make new things, but I also have a reputation for it here in the UK so people look me up to see what I am up to which is nice, but they also give me the 'who do I go to for this?' pieces which I like. Yes I make a variety of items, and believe me there will never be a run on 18thC nutmeg graters, but I might sell 2 of these, 3 crossbows, 2 inkwells, 2 straight razors, 15 rondels etc during a year and together it makes almost enough.


Quote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
To me, that's fascinating from a lot of angles. I bet it's interesting for you as well because you get to explore new parts of history and almost tinker with things to see "how they were executed.". Not to get too strange about it (if it's not already too late for that?), but I suspect it might almost make you explore the mindsets of the craftspeople of the past.


Quote:
Leo Todeschini wrote:
As regards getting in the mindset, that is often the case. A moment I had last week was a real revelation and that was when I making the black handled bollock dagger, which has a kind of angled ridge between the balls. I had looked at the original and thought this was a pretty detail and rather fetching and had tried a couple of times to replicate it, which I found quite hard to do.

When I made that particular dagger I changed my carving/filing technique slightly, once again trying to replicate the ridge and hit on how it was done, but much more interestingly why it was done. Basically if that ridge appears it makes the carving/filing much easier and so quicker, but also it allows you to blend in any deeper gouges into the handle form without it showing i.e. it makes it quicker to carve. In a nutshell having that ridge makes the manufacture quicker.

I was also in the V and A this summer handling some 15thC leatherwork with a view to replicating it for them. When I studied the decorative pattern, which was a cross hatched design, the lines started to run out of true and were no longer parallel accross the face of the box. It happens because the maker was freehanding the lines and as you move accross a piece the angle between your arm and your body changes. It was something I loved to see because I freehand a lot of my work and it happens to me if I don't watch out for it. Basically it told me the guy making it didn't use a straight edge, didn't mark it out, was right handed and was tired/bored/gossiping when he made it.

It is also something I love to see as most people have a notion that medieval 'crafted' items were somehow and always perfect, which they rarely were. This was a high status document case, beautifully decorated and yet in a modern sense it had badly executed decoration. Even Henry VIII's armour for the field of cloth of gold has at least one line of hinge rivet holes that were wrongly punched, rivetted in to fill and repositioned and that is probably the most expensive suit of armour ever made.

I often have to make a few pieces of one type, but yes you do start to get insights into why things were approached in certain ways and I find that really interesting because you have to understand something to make it properly but more importantly from a commercial point of view, efficiently.



 Attachment: 141.09 KB
bol handles -small.jpg


www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
www.facebook.com/TodTodeschini
www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An interesting topic of conversation Leo. I think you are highlighting why recreating ancient crafts as closely as possible is so important to archeology. Although we can learn a lot by studying period sources, studying period artifacts and their find context sometimes there is just really no substitute for actually trying to DO something. The human animal hasn't really changed much in the last couple thousand years or so. We tend to think a certain way and our bodies have certain mechanical limitations. Chances are pretty good that if we DO something enough we are going to find ourselves DOING it in the way our ancestors did even if we have to arrive at the method through trial and error... just like they did.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My work on a sallet liner turned into a long (long) meditation on the subject of time, labor and craftsmanship in the medieval world. That was always part of my reason for hand-stitching--I wanted a taste of what's required, both physically and mentally--but I feel I got more insight than I expected. Here's what I wrote at the time:

For the quilting, my plan was to make long, crude stitches of the sort Iíve seen in some original liners. I soon discovered that this work is so repetitive and time-consuming that it's almost meditative. Without my brain fully engaged in the sewing, I fell into a pattern of small, close stitches, which Iíve also seen on original liners. When I realized this early in the quilting of the first triangle I decided to press ahead in that pattern rather than undo my work to that point. I finally finished the quilting an estimated 1,000 stitches later.

Ditto for the bevor liner I made next.

Notice the length and spacing of stitches below vs. the straightness of the rows. I used tape as a guide to keep my rows straight, but there are a few stray stitches. I didn't have any sort of guide for stitch length and spacing, but those appear to be more uniform than the rows. Why? Maybe because the brain turns off if there's a mechanical guide to take over that part of the work, while the brain has to work harder when there is no such guide.

I don't have any significant sewing experience. I wouldn't even be qualified to be a medieval apprentice in that field. But even I found that all you have to do is start the project to get closer to a medieval mindset about time and labor, and that starts to direct your work. It took me many, many hours to do this work, and although I usually worked on a park bench with only my thoughts for company, I never had any trouble sewing while talking with somebody curious about what I was doing. After a few stitches the brain (in my case, at least) decides it can set the hands moving and go off to play. The time passes quickly as a result. I wonder if mail-making would be similar.

I keep coming back to the term "meditative". This kind of work certainly is that way for me. Very interesting. Every project inspires me to do more, learn new things and believe that it really is possible to do good work with very simple tools. And I think there's much more to be learned about oneself and one's ancestors from DIY than from purchasing off-the-shelf.

Around the time I was doing this work I read a letter in National Geographic expressing doubt that a bit of sewn fabric shown in a previous issue really was ancient because the stitches were so small and precise. Could that really have been done with primitive tools, the letter-writer asked. The author of the article assured the letter-writer that it certainly was possible. I'll second that and point out that working with "primitive" tools can be much more about valuation of time, craftsmanship and labor than about overall quality. As for uniformity, I now think you'd have to do more than simply glance at conscientious hand-stitching to distinguish it from machine-stitching. Oh, but the time! Hours vs. minutes.



 Attachment: 46.29 KB
download-1.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Peter Lyon
Industry Professional



Location: New Zealand
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Reading list: 39 books

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a great topic. As a craftsman, when looking at or handling period objects I am also trying to get into the head of the craftsman a bit, and figure out what he or she was trying to achieve as they worked on the object. Also the relationship between maker and buyer/user - was he trying to cut corners to meet a price?

I have had the privilege to handle some period swords this year, and they offer some fascinating insights. Fullers a bit off line, blades with ripples, and so on, but still often beautifully finished swords. The piece that sticks in my memory is a chanfron that has raised chevrons at the muzzle - it looks like the craftsman started at the muzzle, and as he did the chevron points the line turned to the left a bit and went very off line; he left the points as they were and cheated it by stepping the lines on the other side to distract from the points. As Bob Savage said at the time, these pieces were "made by people, for people".
View user's profile Send private message
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,524

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
As for uniformity, I now think you'd have to do more than simply glance at conscientious hand-stitching to distinguish it from machine-stitching. Oh, but the time! Hours vs. minutes.


I used to work in special effects and modelmaking and that is all about giving the viewer what they expect to see and a great part of this happens on a subconsious level. So a part of a space ship will have to look correct even though most of the viewers will know nothing about the engineering of a ficticious spaceship and I firmly believe handwork in general and handstiching particularly work on the subconcious. Looking at the very nice stiching shown above, it is not immediately obvious it is hand done, it is neat and even, but I would bet my bottom dollar that if it was machine done the evenness would standout a mile and the piece would look wrong.

Quote:
Peter Lyon wrote:
Also the relationship between maker and buyer/user - was he trying to cut corners to meet a price?


I am also interested in applied decoration and why certain choices were made and I think that very often the sum of 'how much bang for my buck' was made and decided in favour of quick to execute work with a bold result so that large areas could be decorated with a relative level of speed and so raise the perceived value of a piece. Again I am thinking of this leather document case I was studying in the summer (sorry no pictures) but every surface was decorated and yet none of it was measured or marked out - why? I can only surmise that it was quicker not to; so the maker banged on high relief, bold areas surrounded by lower labour geometric patterns. The result was a piece that appeared to have loads of decoration, which it did, but 95% was dead quick to execute and indeed quick enough that the extra half hour required to mark it out was seen as too much extra work. (I assume).

www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
www.facebook.com/TodTodeschini
www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
My work on a sallet liner turned into a long (long) meditation on the subject of time, labor and craftsmanship in the medieval world. That was always part of my reason for hand-stitching--I wanted a taste of what's required, both physically and mentally--but I feel I got more insight than I expected. Here's what I wrote at the time:

For the quilting, my plan was to make long, crude stitches of the sort Iíve seen in some original liners. I soon discovered that this work is so repetitive and time-consuming that it's almost meditative. Without my brain fully engaged in the sewing, I fell into a pattern of small, close stitches, which Iíve also seen on original liners. When I realized this early in the quilting of the first triangle I decided to press ahead in that pattern rather than undo my work to that point. I finally finished the quilting an estimated 1,000 stitches later.

Ditto for the bevor liner I made next.

Notice the length and spacing of stitches below vs. the straightness of the rows. I used tape as a guide to keep my rows straight, but there are a few stray stitches. I didn't have any sort of guide for stitch length and spacing, but those appear to be more uniform than the rows. Why? Maybe because the brain turns off if there's a mechanical guide to take over that part of the work, while the brain has to work harder when there is no such guide.

I don't have any significant sewing experience. I wouldn't even be qualified to be a medieval apprentice in that field. But even I found that all you have to do is start the project to get closer to a medieval mindset about time and labor, and that starts to direct your work. It took me many, many hours to do this work, and although I usually worked on a park bench with only my thoughts for company, I never had any trouble sewing while talking with somebody curious about what I was doing. After a few stitches the brain (in my case, at least) decides it can set the hands moving and go off to play. The time passes quickly as a result. I wonder if mail-making would be similar.

I keep coming back to the term "meditative". This kind of work certainly is that way for me. Very interesting. Every project inspires me to do more, learn new things and believe that it really is possible to do good work with very simple tools. And I think there's much more to be learned about oneself and one's ancestors from DIY than from purchasing off-the-shelf.

Around the time I was doing this work I read a letter in National Geographic expressing doubt that a bit of sewn fabric shown in a previous issue really was ancient because the stitches were so small and precise. Could that really have been done with primitive tools, the letter-writer asked. The author of the article assured the letter-writer that it certainly was possible. I'll second that and point out that working with "primitive" tools can be much more about valuation of time, craftsmanship and labor than about overall quality. As for uniformity, I now think you'd have to do more than simply glance at conscientious hand-stitching to distinguish it from machine-stitching. Oh, but the time! Hours vs. minutes.


my grandmother and grandaunt used to accompany stitching with prayer, more exactly they matched the Rosary prayer recitation (a repetitive exercise) to stitching.

Still an application of the Ora et labora benedictine rule.

As a replicator of blades (very part time) I find it a good intellectual exercise, and a philosophical one when working at an ancient forge, in a team that teaches cooperative work, a direct descendant of the brescian working teams that produced armor and blades in the middle age.

The most spiritual experience is to be working on an original blade to take measurements.
View user's profile Send private message
D. Austin
Industry Professional



Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 20 Sep 2007

Posts: 208

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting in the mindset of our ancestors         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:

When I made that particular dagger I changed my carving/filing technique slightly, once again trying to replicate the ridge and hit on how it was done, but much more interestingly why it was done. Basically if that ridge appears it makes the carving/filing much easier and so quicker, but also it allows you to blend in any deeper gouges into the handle form without it showing i.e. it makes it quicker to carve. In a nutshell having that ridge makes the manufacture quicker.


A very interesting point. I recently made a bollock dagger and being unaware of that ridge on historical examples, found myself filing that bit down as it was the only part of the hilt that I couldn't get to with a knife (the balls are in the way and I didn't want to cut across the grain for fear of splintering the wood). I found that the most difficult part for me was getting the wood and the guard to match up as there are some complex shapes there. Looking at your two above, I'm wondering if the original had the hollow band of wood beside the guard cut in after assembly of the piece, to make it fit. This kind of thing reminds me of flying buttresses, where a practical construction solution becomes a design feature.

I think it's very interesting what can be learnt just by attempting something. Many years ago when I had a lot more time on my hands I made a shirasaya (plain wooden scabbard) for a katana. As I wanted the grain to match and didn't have the appropriate power tools, I tried to figure out how to split the timber down the middle in a straight line. I decided to use a saw which I could pull instead of pushing so I could follow the line better. After a few inches of sawing I found the under side of the cut wandering and decided to turn the piece over and swap sides every few saw strokes. Painstakingly slow, but very effective. A few years later I read that Kazuyuki Takayama, a 6th generation scabbard maker uses this method himself. He stands on a stump, holding the blank between his feet to split the wood. This bit I did not think of, but I'd imagine it would save a lot of time using feet instead of a clamp if one is to flip the piece over every few strokes.

When I first started trying to reproduce medieval items I was pleasantly surprised to find that hand tools can often be more effective than modern "labour saving devices". For example, it's easier to make a blade straight with a file than with a grinder and shaping a scabbard nicely is easier with a plane than with an electric sander.

Fascinating topic guys.

Darren.
View user's profile Send private message
Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional



Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some objects still bear evidence of their making methods - hey one could almost make a PhD out of that Wink

I wholeheartedly agree, Todd. This was clear to me even before I really started making things. There are shapes that are dictated by fashion, others that are dictated by 'the sensible motion', and sometimes it's a bit of both.

Of course, using tools as close as possible to period tools, and trying to be as productive (in the efficiency/time ratio aspect) as possible also helps. No movement is wasted (or as less as possible), as time is of the essence. Materials are, too : they didn't want to waste a gram of iron or wood, it seems (of course there are exceptions, and it tends to evolve as time passes).

When making that Burgundian/Heraldic dagger last year (here and here, with the original here) or even with my latest horseman's hammer, I had to think of "how would they have made this or that", and trying out - more feeling than thinking actually - it turned out that some details, even in the mishaps, matched those on the originals. And trying to reproduce them in a thoughtful; conscious manner wouldn't have yelded the same results, I think.

When I work, a bit like when I'm drawing or painting, or swordfighting, I don't really look at things. I'm seeing something a few centimeters inside the matter, or beyond. I'm more relying on my general perception, than on organised, cartesian tought processes.

PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Justin King
Industry Professional



Location: flagstaff,arizona
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 551

PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting conversation, thanks for putting it out for open discussion. It's interesting to try to replicate historical items and wonder how the original maker's methods and tools differred from ours, or how similar they may have been, and how this influences the final product. Also how different common sensibilities might have been for people centuries ago as compared to the modern world where we are so used to precisely formed, mass-produced objects.
There is an organic quality to most hand-made objects that is often hard to define, and is unique to both the craftsman and his experience and influence at the time when the object was made, the latter of which grow and mature throughout the lifetime of any crafstman. Studying even a single piece can be a major undertaking, as with Peter Johnsson's study of the Svante sword, and may still leave one with more questions than answers. The older the object is the more of a mystery it can be.
There are some historical pieces that flat astound me with hand-wrought detail, some of the chiseled iron rapier hilts in particular just leave me in awe, the slightest pondering on how they accomplished this just gives me a headache...
View user's profile Send private message
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,524

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Justin King wrote:
There are some historical pieces that flat astound me with hand-wrought detail, some of the chiseled iron rapier hilts in particular just leave me in awe, the slightest pondering on how they accomplished this just gives me a headache...


You and me both and to be fair there are some current makers offerings that also leave me wondering just how........I think that part of your/our mystification is that techniques or even just little twists to a technique have been lost and it is these that change everything relative to the ease of undertaking the job. It is these techniques that are there for us to discover again, but finding out everything for yourself from only the grounding you have is slow work. Just imagine the progress in medieval weapons reproduction that would happen if 50 makers set up a workshop for a year let alone a decade some of the big factories had hundreds of makers.

I think the other factor to this is the willingness and ability of our predecessors to throw time at a job, maybe not a masters time, but 500 hours of an apprentice to rough out, followed by 200 of a journeyman to tidy up and prepare, followed by 50 of a master to execute, would give a result that is rarely seen now and few have the money/customer to allow for that these days.

www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
www.facebook.com/TodTodeschini
www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 5:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This willingess to spend time is also linked to the pre-industial attitude to cost and luxuries.
In a pre-industrial/capitalist society, the aim of acumulating wealth is to spend it.
(as opposed to the capitalist mindsett, where the aim of accumulating capital is to generate more capital.)

Thus, strict value-for-money did not apply. If you had to pay several years worth of wages to get a exeptional sword or armour, you did so, even if this sword was not strictly much better than a high end "standard" model.
As long as you could afford it, having money laying about wasn't seen as a value in and of it self.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
F. Carl Holz




Location: someplace out on the water (and probably not able to access my PM)
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a really fascinating discussion and it is forcing me to look at things in a very different way. I have never been much a fan of making stuff for my kit myself, largely because of a combination of a desire for an accuracy I doubt I have the knowledge to produce and an understanding (here read as "being realistic") that I probably don't have the follow through to finish a large project once I have started; I am indeed a product of my age.
In light of what I have read in this discussion though I may have to begin taking up little projects . If nothing else it sounds as though it would be a good stress relief in my spare time and it will inspire me to further my research into specific areas. In the long run if I manage the small ones it will probably give me what I need to complete larger ones too.
Big Grin Anyways, just me spilling my mind on the page
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
... I would bet my bottom dollar that if it was machine done the evenness would standout a mile and the piece would look wrong...


I glance down at the cuff of my shirt and see that you're right. Shows my inexperience with sewing machines. I wonder if there's a way to rig a machine to sew a bit erratically in order to approximate hand stitching. I know that misses the point of the discussion, but it seems like that could be put to good use.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Justin King
Industry Professional



Location: flagstaff,arizona
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 551

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sometimes I ponder how much of a difference it makes that 500 or 1000 years ago a lot of kids in their formative years were already beginning to learn a trade or craft, at an age when modern kids are learning to read, write, fill out paperwork, play video games, use computers, finding a million ways to use a cell phone, and everything else it takes to be able function in this very complicated modern world, particularly here in the U.S. and other fully industrialized nations. I sometimes think that the difference is bigger than we usually realize.
View user's profile Send private message
Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional



Location: Netherlands
Joined: 11 Mar 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 740

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For me recreating ancient artifacts isn't just getting into the mindset of our ancestors, it's close to having a personal conversation with the makers of the original. When I reproduce things with authentic methods, I try to ask every question I can to find out how they did it. Then I look at the originals, and see if the maker has left the clues in, and when they are there, it's like: Aha! I understand exactly what you mean:) Particularly interesting are unfinished artifacts, or artifacts with flaws in them. When I make something the authentic way, and get exactly the same failure as on originals, then to me it's a perfect success!Happy That means that I truly understand the way they were making it. And it's also reassuring that they went through the same difficulties. Then again, it's also very humbling just to see how few original artifacts actually have flaws, even minor esthetic flaws, which are barely noticeable, and don't inhibit the function. Then I also realize that I'm still working on the easy stuff, nowhere close to the high end stuff they were making. Then that makes me realize that these people were not just good, they were nearly inhumanly good at their craft.

And to really get a good understanding, you have to start including superstition. Now I'm a rational thinking person, with a scientific background, but if I don't fully respect the bronze gods, I'm only producing scrap Happy I don't know what believes they had in prehistoric times, but in medieval times, creating something was honoring God. When you made something, you were bringing a piece of heaven on earth, and you did as much your best as you possibly could. To me that's a very interesting mindset. For that reason, when I'm working on something, it's never "good enough". If it's "good enough", it means I'm cutting corners, and producing sub-quality work. And with moulds, if it's "good enough" I know it's it will give failed castings. Something is either as good as I can make it, or it's not finished yet. When spending more time into it doesn't change the quality anymore, then it's finished.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Tue 21 Oct, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I also found out that proper materials and proper finish on them make the replicated object age much much better. Any short cut in this area can sometimes be concealed at first but usually pops up when it's a bit worn or "used".

Found that out the hard way, now if I can't make it properly and from correct materials, I don't even bother because I know the end result will not be pleasing on the long run.

Not that I did a lot of things... Some sewing, leather work, wax tablets...And a lot of board games. I even carved the whole chess set (Islamic type figurines, up to 15th century).





Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
Joined: 29 Feb 2008

Posts: 253

PostPosted: Sat 01 Nov, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs-I found a quote I like in Fletcher Pratt's "Engineers of the Ancient World" I believe it was, where he was talking about the Egyptian engineers. He was discussing pyramyds, statues,oblisques, and so on, and said "these things were not miraculous, the were made by men with a few simple tools, basic knowledge of mechanics, and most of all, massed muscle power and Patience"
Ja68ms
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sun 02 Nov, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello to all - great thread!

I have found, also, that creating period garments is very meditative.

I am a self-taught seamstress, and for many years, I saw some detail, which seemed overly complicated, unnecessary, or purely decorative in nature. (as an example, codpieces in hose). However, after many failed or semi-successful attempts to alter or remove the detail... I realize why it's there (the codpiece acts as a gusset in a join that desperately needs one, and even were you to cut the hose in such a way that the "decorative" nature of the codpiece was removed, the gusset between the legs would still be necessary) It's a wonderful thing to simply succumb to the craftsmen of the past, and simply do as they did. Or try, at least.

I also wanted to share that sewing garments by hand and by machine are two different arts. Clearly, they are different, I am not telling you guys anything there... but what I mean is that the patterning is different, the joining is different, and the order you sew the garments together is different. You can also accomplish completely different things using either one.

For many medieval/renaissance garments, there is no way to "do" it with a machine. Not just aesthetically, but physically, the construction techniques are so radically different that to do it medievally by machine is simply wrong.

I think that many people have the misconception that it doesn't matter other than by aesthetics, and I simply wanted to throw out that as far as clothing goes, there is a radical difference between the two.

Selohaar Fechtschule, Free Scholar
http://www.selohaar.org/fechtschule

FŁhlen Designs, Owner/Designer/Seamstress
http://fuhlendesigns.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Getting in the mindset of our ancestors
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum