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John Cooksey




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Oct, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Dating of Albion Type X's (Reeve and Stamford)???         Reply with quote

Is anyone willing to hazard a guess for the earliest -in-use dates of the hilt types exhibited on Albion's Stamford and Reeve models?

I know that spike-hilts in general appear to originate in the second half of the tenth century, but I was wondering if anyone could shed light on the particular dating of hilts styled like those of these two Albion models.

I like both, but am really looking for a high-quality weapon to represent the second half of the 10th century, in general.
So, from 950 to 1000 AD/CE.

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Oct, 2008 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: Dating of Albion Type X's (Reeve and Stamford)???         Reply with quote

John Cooksey wrote:
Is anyone willing to hazard a guess for the earliest -in-use dates of the hilt types exhibited on Albion's Stamford and Reeve models?

I know that spike-hilts in general appear to originate in the second half of the tenth century, but I was wondering if anyone could shed light on the particular dating of hilts styled like those of these two Albion models.

I like both, but am really looking for a high-quality weapon to represent the second half of the 10th century, in general.
So, from 950 to 1000 AD/CE.


Both the Oakeshott Type VIIIa (Gaddhjalt) and VIIIb (Stamford) were in use well into the 11th century. In fact, I've heard it mentioned several times that the Bayeux Tapestry pictures William the Conqueror holding a sword with the VIIIb (tea cosy pommel, short straight guard) hilt form, as per Albion's Stamford.

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Oct, 2008 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Dating of Albion Type X's (Reeve and Stamford)???         Reply with quote

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Both the Oakeshott Type VIIIa (Gaddhjalt) and VIIIb (Stamford) were in use well into the 11th century. In fact, I've heard it mentioned several times that the Bayeux Tapestry pictures William the Conqueror holding a sword with the VIIIb (tea cosy pommel, short straight guard) hilt form, as per Albion's Stamford.


Jeremiah,
Your numbers are confusing. Oakeshott only used Roman numerals for the blade typology, with arabic numerals and standard letters for the other components.

The Gaddhjalt would be a Type Xa blade, Style 1 guard, and Type A pommel.

The Stamford would be a Type X blade, Style 3 guard (probably), and Type B1 pommel.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Stephan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 12:28 am    Post subject: In-use date of Albion Reeve         Reply with quote

Dear all

I would like to bring up again these postings started by John Cooksey. Im also interest to know whether the Albion Reeve would fit in the period from 950 to 1000 AD/CE or not. Every helpful comment from the experts is highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance Stephan
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: In-use date of Albion Reeve         Reply with quote

Stephan S. wrote:
Dear all

I would like to bring up again these postings started by John Cooksey. Im also interest to know whether the Albion Reeve would fit in the period from 950 to 1000 AD/CE or not. Every helpful comment from the experts is highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance Stephan


I could be wrong but I think Jeremiah might be trying to use the Geibig typology for his classification, hence the numerics lower than ten (X).

Stephen,

Yes, the Reeve would fit exactly into that time frame. In fact, my personal opinion is that the brazil-nut pommel might have been seen as just a bit old fashioned by the mid-11th century, at least in western europe. In Central and Eastern Europe it seems to have retained its popularity for a bit longer. Early Medieval Swords in Central and Eastern Europe by Lech Marek is highly recommended for information on this particular subject. We have traditionally viewed the brazil-nut as the typical "norman" pommel style, I know I did that for many years. However, when examining other period artistic sources the disc-type pommel seems to become more prevalent by the second quarter of the 11th cent. In the vast majority of paintings and sculpture from both France and Southern Italy the disc pommel is illustrated. The disc pommel is seen in near entirety on the Bayeaux Tapestry, anything that looks like something else on the BT might very well be a simple gaff in the stitching, considering the level of fine detail in the work is so lacking.

While the disc pommel was also in use as early as your period in question, even a bit earlier, I'd say the Reeve might be a better example of the common denominator for the period.


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Mon 23 Feb, 2009 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: Dating of Albion Type X's (Reeve and Stamford)???         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Both the Oakeshott Type VIIIa (Gaddhjalt) and VIIIb (Stamford) were in use well into the 11th century. In fact, I've heard it mentioned several times that the Bayeux Tapestry pictures William the Conqueror holding a sword with the VIIIb (tea cosy pommel, short straight guard) hilt form, as per Albion's Stamford.


Jeremiah,
Your numbers are confusing. Oakeshott only used Roman numerals for the blade typology, with arabic numerals and standard letters for the other components.

The Gaddhjalt would be a Type Xa blade, Style 1 guard, and Type A pommel.

The Stamford would be a Type X blade, Style 3 guard (probably), and Type B1 pommel.



Chad,

I'm going from the first edition of The Sword in the Age of Chivalry. My apologies, VIIIa and VIIIb were from the Wheeler Typology, which Oakeshott then built onto from Type X onward.

Remember that both the Petersen and Wheeler Typologies were primarily based on hilt form, not blade form. As both the Stamford and Gaddhjalt were both Viking-era patterns, I felt the Wheeler type was more appropriate.

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Stephan S.




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 6:23 am    Post subject: Complementary questions         Reply with quote

Dear Patrick

Thanks for your instant comments regarding my request. Since serveral weeks I`m the proud owner of a Reeve with dark brown grip sold to me by a forums member. It is a beautiful, simple but very very impressive cutting sword.

I would like to ask two complementary questions:

1. Do you (or others) have an idea around what time period these swords of type Xa blades combined with brazil-nut pommels started to see duty on the early medivial battlefields?

2. Were these swords also a common sword type seen at the territory of the East-Frankish Kingdom during the time of Heinrich I. and Otto I. ?

Sorry to bother you all with my questions. At the moment Im looking for some good books to do some self studies.

Thanks in advance !

Stephan
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Complementary questions         Reply with quote

Stephan S. wrote:

1. Do you (or others) have an idea around what time period these swords of type Xa blades combined with brazil-nut pommels started to see duty on the early medivial battlefields?


Hi Stephan,

Oakeshott's Xa also fits into the lesser-known Geibig typology as "Type 5." Whereas Oakeshott's typology centers around the medieval and renaissance eras, the Geibig typology is a classification of blades from the Migration and Viking eras.

The Geibig Type 5 is contemporary with the blade of my Stamford (and, by extension, your Reeve, as they use the same blade). Our blades do not neatly fit into the Geibig typology, as they are sort of a hybrid of Geibig Types 3 and 4 (but are still historical, nonetheless-- remember that NO typology will cover EVERY historical example). The Geibig Type 5 first started seeing service in the mid-10th Century and continued well into the mid-11th Century. The Gaddhjalt hilt form first started seeing service in the EARLY 10th Century, according to Albion's description. Thus, the hilt form was developed only a few years before the Geibig Type 5 blade was, at least, according to the archaeological record...

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephan,

As Jeremiah has already stated: according to Petersens typology and Ian Peirce in his book Swords of the Viking Age (highly recommended) these swords are in use by the early 10th century. So yes, I think this style of sword would have been seen during the period of Heinrich I. When using typologies, whether it's Oakeshotts, Geibigs, etc., we need to remember these are only broad guidelines not absolutes. There will always be swords that don't fit neatly into a typologies structure.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Complementary questions         Reply with quote

Stephan S. wrote:

2. Were these swords also a common sword type seen at the territory of the East-Frankish Kingdom during the time of Heinrich I. and Otto I. ?


Check out Fig 87 (p 205) of Oakeshott's Archeology of Weapons. 'The Emperor's Armor Bearer" from the Gospels of Otto III. This depicts a Brazil-nut sword in the same ballpark as the Reeve. Otto III assumed power in 983, just 10 years after Otto I died. I'd call that pretty good evidence that you're in the right ballpark...in fact right on base.
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Stephan S.




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Feb, 2009 4:49 am    Post subject: Thanks         Reply with quote

Dear all,
thanks a lot for all of your input and the patience you showed with me. The given informations are very helpful for me and Im happy that the Reeve fits so perfect into the timeframe I m interested.
I will go for some of the recommended books to educate myself a little bit more.

Regarding my Reeve: At the moment Im going for a scabard. I already made the wood core with an inlay of goatskin. As it now comes to the leather work and as I have never dealt with this I gave the wood core to an experienced craftman here in Germany who is in medieval leathers works.

Cheers Stephan
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Stephan S.




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Mar, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject: Wallace Collection - matching timeframe         Reply with quote

I found the below on the webpage of Wallace Collection. As I assume that the below shown sword from Wallace Collection is a German sword with Type X blade and brazil-nut pommel the given timeframe from you guys was absolutly correct - Thanks again !


 Attachment: 7.39 KB
Wallace1.jpg


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Wallace2.jpg

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Craig L.




PostPosted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Albion Europe site gives a date range for the Reeve of 1080-1150. There's been a good bit of discussion in this thread that would favour an earlier "start date" for this sword, but has anyone seen justification for an end date as late as 1150?

Thanks in advance!
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Antonio Lamadrid





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think AEs is the right chronology.

The Reeve has an Oakeshott Type X blade. This type was in use between 900-1130 more or less.

Its guard is a Style 1, common from the Viking Age to the Renaissance.

There are earlier types of brazil-nut pommels, but the one the Reeve has is the Geibig Variante 15-II. It was used between 1100-1200.

So we have a gap of 30 years, 1100-1130, where everything is fine. Give and take 20 years to that date for good measure and we have the 1080-1150 time period.



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Neil Langley




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Antonio Lamadrid wrote:

...

There are earlier types of brazil-nut pommels, but the one the Reeve has is the Geibig Variante 15-II. It was used between 1100-1200.

...



I see the Reeve pommel as more transitional in form between Variants I and II - I believe you could push the date on this back as far as 1000AD without difficulty (a 100 year 'continuity gap' between production of the two types seems counter-intuitive - albeit there is no evidence against).

Neil.
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Craig L.




PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Thanks         Reply with quote

Thanks lads -- less than 24 hours later and I have two high-quality answers to my query. Much appreciated! Big Grin
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