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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Eastern Europe Knights XIII century         Reply with quote

Hello guys.
Do you know if Hungarian, Polish or such knights of eastern Europe wore the western European battle gear (Great-Helm, Mail, surcoat, arming-sword, axe, lance, etc...) during the second half of the XIII century, Or they looked like more Byzantine or Turkish soldiers?

Thanks

P.D.

Do you know if Scimitar like sabers were used by such men at arms too?
Do you know if the Anjou or Lorena Cross was common in their heraldry/ Surcoats?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Polish knights were pretty 'standard' European Knights.

Of course some national and personal differences are always visible, but major oriental influences were visible in Polish arms after medieval had ended.

"The word "scimitar", known in English since 1548, according to Wikipedia. And all curved swords that are hiding behind that meaning weren't really used anywhere in XIII century, and certainly not in Poland.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Beltplate of a hungarian knight, 1260's:

Zoltán



 Attachment: 74.16 KB
em522li93045.jpg

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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a beautiful beltplate. Amazing detail. Where is this beltplate today?
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
Beltplate of a hungarian knight, 1260's:

Zoltán


Wow. I have no words to describe it. It is so beautiful Zoltan, Excellent thanks it is awesome, even they have crests in their helms. Thanks, its really illustrative. i didn´t know that there were so nice beltplates.
I would like to know where is it today too. Its awesome.

Thanks Bartek, i always though that scimitars were slicing around during that century.
About axes... Any ax in XIII century eastern Europe or saber?

Thanks guys, your help is very appreciated.

Edit
P.S.
http://www.ourdecay.com/Medieval/Pics/crusade...lm_400.jpg

Do you think that this helm could be used during that time, or it is very advanced for XIII century?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it is in the National Museum, Budapest. The plate is not so big, max. 4x 10 cm.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the hungarians made a crusade in the 1210-s, so it could be:-))
(I 've just heard this: king II. Andrew of Hungary (Arpad-dinasty) gave during the crusade his revenues from his transilwanian gold-mines for building the outer walls of the Krak de Chevall. Cuold this be true??)

The hungarian documents after 1241-42 are discrebing an armour and weapons for knighlty persons almost like the frankish doks from the Caroling era. King IV. Béla wanted quality instead of quantity. In the battle of Mohács fought a large number of western type heavy knights (f.e. the knights of the king's brother, Kalman, and those of the archbishop of Kalocsa, ab. Ugrin, and there were some templer knights with their 2-300 sergants or so), who caused heavy casualties to the mongols in nearfight, but mostly of them died on the b.field, after the tatars let the hung. middle and light cavalry to leave the b.field.
After this the hungarian knights had to have lance, a shield, a good horse, "armour" (??) and a sword.

The light cavalry: probably most of the hungarian riders (the hungarians usually had very few infantry) were light armoured. Certenly, when they had the opport. to get a chainmail or a helmet, they could transform them a little bit for their personal tactics. But they were wearing mostly just leather armour, or 3-4 greased leather kaftans at once. They used bows, and long, straight swords, and short lances.

Hungarian szeklers, and the pechenegs and kumans: these groups (and other smaller parts os tribes/klans, f.e. uz torks, kazars, iazigs) they fought mostly just with light cavalry, F.e. the second generation of kumans used straight swords instead of the sabre.

They hade to fought mostly against western warriors, so it was almost like in the antient rus, just in the opposit direction: the rus had to fight against the pechenegs, so they changed over to the saber. The lightcavalry in Hungary c.o. to the straight sword.

Axe: I think the hung. heavy knights (the max. 5-6 000 man at once) used the common european one handed battle axe types. But the fokos (battle hammer with axe-head) survived until the 20th century, too.

Sabres: there are some sabres on the homepage of Hermann-Historica. Tey are described as avarian sabres from the 9-10 th Centuries, but most of them (mostly the ones witl long blades and very peaked points are surely from the 11-13th Centuries.
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Zoltan, its good to hear that eastern Europe cavalry was such a great force too. I have the sensation that they most people do not imagine such knights when talking about eastern cavalry.

Do you know guys if mail armour for the horse was avaiable too?
What about the ¨tunic¨ covering the horses? Do you know if there is mail under them or if they are padded?

I would like to know if the great helm of the picture is accurate for the time of the belt plate, since there are a lot of images showing them with mora a barrel like shape instead of the beautiful one of that piture, or this one

http://armillum.com/tienda/images/ARMAE/yelmo.jpg



Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 1:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry, Rodolfo, I have (at the moment) no idea. With such a helmet is showed in or Picture-Chronic (from the 1360-70's) king Charles Robert of Anjou in the battle of Rozgony in 1312 and in the battle against the walachians in 1333. So almost 70-80 years after your epoch.
I1ll see what I can find.

Zoltán
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
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Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again,

Zoltan, you mentioned AB Ugrin, Do you know if Bishops fought and wore armour too?
There are some images showing knights with Bishop coifs and i remember that Bishops in Germany, had fiefts and had to defend them, so my question is, If they fought, Where they professional soldiers as we would spect a good knight should be, trained in the MMAA of sword and shield? (Like in the I33 manuscript)

Thanks

About Robert, Was Mail still used during the first half of the XIV century, or the coat of plates replaced the hauberk?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

:-) Ugrin fought two battles some week before Muhi with the mongols. On the way to Buda (the capital) from Kalocsa (today in South-, in the middle ages in Middle-Hungary) almost his whole unit was killed by the m. archers, then when the mongol raiders came in the near of Buda, he fought with them again, and in the battle of Muhi he and Kalman led the hung. contra attack wich smashed the first mongol attacks against the bridge on the river Sajó, in the near of the hung. "Wagenfortess"-camp. After this victory he reamed the king and the soldiers who stayed in the camp out (he claimed, they just take care on their clothes and their long, western style hears):-)
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And other bishops: certenly, all of the hungarian barones, weather from the curch or not, had to follow with a gaved number of soldiers the king in the war out and behind the borders. F.e. in the later times: Pal Tomori, the commander of the hung. troups by Mohács (1526) was some years earlier for a long time the bishop of Nagyvárad (today's Oradea, Romania), and even then he leaded the defense of the southern borders.
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Zoltan,

Maybe this will sound stupid, but do you know if in 1526 Pal Tomori, wore armour, and lance, like the French Men-at-arms? It is really weird to see a Bishop wearing armour and fighting.

Do you know any good tactic against mounted archers used by heavy cavalry lancers?

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
Hello Zoltan,

Maybe this will sound stupid, but do you know if in 1526 Pal Tomori, wore armour, and lance, like the French Men-at-arms? It is really weird to see a Bishop wearing armour and fighting.


As far as I know, fighting bishops weren't really anything weird in medieval. They were often man of wealth and power, with their own forces on battlefield, so if they were able, they often fought too.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Mon 13 Oct, 2008 2:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Rodolfo!

There is a topic here somewhere with the title Hung. cavalry by Mohács, but here is a page showing the first scene of the battle (ottoman painting). Tomori leaded with Imre Szapolyai, brother of the transilvanian voivod, the attack of the hung. heavy cavalry. Here are showed two hungarians, leading the attack, both in heavy armours.

Zoltán

http://mek.oszk.hu/01800/01885/html/index148.html
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
Joined: 29 Feb 2008

Posts: 253

PostPosted: Mon 13 Oct, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs-It was my understanding that by the 12-1300's most wealthy eastern european knights, espically from the area of Austria and Hungary were armed like western knights, but most of their followers were Cumans and other turko-mongol tribes that had fled the Mongol conquest of Russia and the Ukraine and taken refuge in Hungary , Roumania, and Austria.I am glad to see this confirmed, I was not sure of the source.
Ja68ms
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Mon 13 Oct, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello.
Do you know if infantry used pavises durign such time?

James:

The tribes you talk abouyt fought as mounted archers, or the became more like western infantry?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
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Posts: 197

PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The kumans got their right place in the hungarian army. (correctly the place of the szeklers, who had been moved from the west borders and central Hungary into a central settlement area in the East-Charpatians in the late 1100's and early 1200's, to defend the borders against the kumans:-), after the first little "State" of the german order was abolished and the Trans. saxons were settled down too.

In the battle of Dürnkrut (1278) ther kumans leaded the first (and the last) hung. attacks(mainly used the bow), and raided the whole enemy-county behind the battlefield, the attacking bohemian lines were holded by the hung. middle cavalry (used bows too, but many of them had leatherarmour or chainmail, helmets, schield, lances etc, and the attack of the hung. (not very large numbered, but for these kind of tactic enough) heavy cavalry and after that the retireing kumans ended the whole story. The long bearded hung. commanders fought as professional as french knights (after the chronic-writer). But the hung. king commanded his troups from a near hill, like easter commanders.

But it is true, large numbers of the hungarian riders used (even the knights) very often the bow. In the battle of Nicopolis (where Sigismund of Luxemburg wanted to use the same tactic (3 lines, 1. light cavalry (hung-s, walachians), 2. middle cavalry (hungarians), 3heavy cavalry (hung. barones, johannites, french, german and some english knights) against Bayezid), the french (who ruined the whole plan) complained the hungarians could just bowl along on their horses and shoot backward with their bows.

In the 1430-s a french knight (traveling back from Jerusalem) had spend some days in Buda, where he saw a turnier in hungarian style, with smaller horses and shorter lances as usuall, and with hungarian "knightly" saddle, with low back saddle-bow.

Hope I could help something.
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Zoltan,

I think that we tend to imagine French, German and Spanish knights as the only professional knights, when Italy and Eastern Europe have pretty fearsome soldiers too.

So for Hungarian Knights the use of the bow was no taboo.
It is said that during XIII century knights wore coat of plates under the mail hauberk and surcoat, even mail can stop arrows very decently, but, How can a heavy cavalry formation (Without bows) crush a lighter cavalry armed with bows and such, like the Mongols?

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
Joined: 29 Feb 2008

Posts: 253

PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Roldolfo- My sources,(history of Hungary) say that King Matthias Corvinus was the ruler that encouraged the rise of heavy cavalry, He also hired mercenary horse and foot from the free companies that fought in the hundred years war, Vlad Dracul (Dracula) tried to emulate him, the taxes he had to levy to arm heavy cavalry were part of the cause he was finally overthrown. Dracula did not rely on nobility, he used the old Greek tagma system where each free peasant family furrnished a man for the army, and they did not have the money for heavy arms. He defeated the Turks with this army a number of times, but his losses were heavy.
Ja68ms
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