Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Maciejowski Bible questions Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,193

PostPosted: Sun 05 Oct, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Maciejowski Bible questions         Reply with quote

Hey everyone, quick question. In the Maciejowski Bible, there seems to be a lots of helms with crowns on top of them. I was wondering if these are found in archeology or in literary accounts of the period. Do you guys think they existed or is it just artistic convertion to help point out important people in the picture? Oh and does anyone have any info about the round shields being used by the philistines? Thanks in advance.
Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sun 05 Oct, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen,
I'd imagine crowns were used. The effigy of the Black Prince (admittedly over a 100 years later than the Mac Bible) shows a crown on his bascinet:



The Black Prince's great helm, though, has no crown, just a lion as a crest:



A period illustration of Edward III also shows a crowned bascinet:



Henry V wore a crowned helm at Agincourt and had part of it damaged by a blow from a french (often thought to be the Duke of Alencon). A surviving helm attributed to him is a tournament great helm with no evidence of a crown. But every account of Agincourt I've read talks about his crown being struck.

The Romance of Alexander (c. 1340) shows a crowned bascinet:



Below are some more examples. The first is a 13th century illustration (not from the Mac Bible) showing a crowned great helm. I ripped a page in my book scanning this one. Grrrr.....

The second is a bascinet from Chartres cathedral. The patination shows where a crown used to be.

So, I think it's perfectly reasonable. We have more period art from that century that shows it than just the Mac Bible. We have period art from the 14th century and a surviving helm that shows it. And we have literary accounts from the 15th century.



 Attachment: 114.34 KB
crown helm.jpg


 Attachment: 72.04 KB
crown basc.jpg


Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,193

PostPosted: Sun 05 Oct, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad for the reply. I know that these crowned helms are show in many other places than just the Mac Bible but Im not really looking for pictural evidence. Im looking for archeological or literary evidence so thanks for that piece about Henry V at agincourt. I also picted the Mac Bible as it also allowed me to bring up the question about the philistines round shields. Great pics of the black prince by the way.
Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sun 05 Oct, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Thanks Chad for the reply. I know that these crowned helms are show in many other places than just the Mac Bible but Im not really looking for pictural evidence. Im looking for archeological or literary evidence so thanks for that piece about Henry V at agincourt. I also picted the Mac Bible as it also allowed me to bring up the question about the philistines round shields. Great pics of the black prince by the way.


Glad I could help. The Chartres Cathedral helm should provide some archeological evidence too.

Regarding the shields, I've heard it postulated that the "enemies" in the Mac Bible were portrayed in old-style armour (including shields) or in ways designed to make them look more foreign. Perhaps the illustrators were thinking of older-style Viking shields or maybe they thought Middle-easterners were using round shields. I'm not sure.

Or maybe they just wanted an obvious way of distinguishing "good guys" from "bad guys". Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,193

PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I take your point that the "enemies" are shown with older equipment while the "good guys" have the more up to date stuff but I dont think that round shields with enarms were used in Europe untill much later than this (someone please correct me if Im wrong). I have allways thought that these shields were ment to represent some sort of shield used in the Islamic world.
Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
I take your point that the "enemies" are shown with older equipment while the "good guys" have the more up to date stuff but I dont think that round shields with enarms were used in Europe untill much later than this (someone please correct me if Im wrong). I have allways thought that these shields were ment to represent some sort of shield used in the Islamic world.


Round shields were used in Viking times with center grips but shields during the era of the Mac Bible had strapping and were of heater shape. Perhaps the illustrators of the Mac Bible knew round shields were used in older times but weren't aware of the center grip, so they substituted period strapping. Question

But, as I said above, it is possible that round shields were believed to be more Islamic. What's interesting is that the rest of the armour, swords, clothing, and scabbards of the "enemies" are very European, just perhaps a bit out of date.

I don't know that we'll ever know for sure what was in the minds of the people who made those illustrations. But it's fun to speculate. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If asked to describe "heathen knights" a 13th century crusader would probably say "Mostly like us, but with spanghelms and round shields."
Which would at that point sum up things pretty nicely, if you did not go into details about design and ornamentation.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Kjell Magnusson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 10 Jun 2004

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Tue 07 Oct, 2008 4:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Getting even further in time from the Maciejowski Bible than Chad's examples, but here's crowned helmet which belonged to Gustav I Vasa of Sweden (reigned 1523-1560).


 Attachment: 69.91 KB
Crowned Helmet 1.jpg


 Attachment: 83.48 KB
Crowned Helmet 3.jpg


 Attachment: 109.61 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Maciejowski Bible questions
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum