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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Longsword technique footwork.         Reply with quote

Hello

I have seen this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=related

And i wish to know if they footwork is accurate.
Does it really matters the way in wich you step to perform a technique?

What about the hand in the sword? Does it really matters if the hand of the side of the frontal leg in the middle guard, is near to the cross-guard or grabbing the pommel? Or this can be swiched?

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Footwork, or the skill of putting yourself away from the enemy and the enemy into your weapon, is really the core of any martial art. Without, fighting is awkward and difficult, not to mention you put yourself at a disadvantage without mobility.

As for hand placement, based on what little langswert fetchen I've studied, it has to do with which hand is dominate; as far as I'm aware, you don't "switch" hand placement. You actually use the "rear" hand to provide leverage -- when you swing into the cut, you pull towards you on the back of the handle, adding additional momentum (or so the article on our own site says).

In any respect, the guys at Gadiatores are very skilled and are well practiced, so I would not expect there to be discrepancies that cannot be well explained. You should be able to get a message off to them via their website, or sword forum international.

M.

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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Longsword technique footwork.         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:

Does it really matters the way in wich you step to perform a technique?


Yes. Many techniques will not work at all without proper footwork.

Your footwork determines many things, and one of these is where you will be in relation to your opponent. Many techniques rely on the geometry certain relative positions have to offer.

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the answers guys.

I think i realized how it works, i´ll bang my head before asking stupid questions.
It seems that the right hand is the one near the hilt, as Mr. Eversberg II said before.

Look at the guy with the red throusers in 2:36:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA

I tend to advance in that way when fight, since i feel more stable. Do you think it is ok?

I have Flos Duellatorum and it is very hard for me to follow its instructions, specially with footwork.
My friend had John Clement´s Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods and Techniques, and i can remember that he wrote that the leading leg can be eighter the right or the left without any hand shift, mostley depending in wich hand was the dominant one for the cross-guard, instead of wich leg was the dominant... i guess...

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 10:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo

At 2:36 the guy on the right in the red throusers first makes a passing step (right foot moving forward pass the left foot) and then a simple step with his right foot. Their footwork looks good to me.

Ran Pleasant
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Randall.
Thats what i wanted to mean when i said if footwork really matters, if passing and simple steps can be performing depending in the moment, instead of being tied to certain form of counter-attack.
I ask because i practise with my friend, we use not very orthodox home-made wooden wasters, with the size and the weight of a sword (Well, mine is only 110cm long), and when we simulate a fight my friend (Who has a very sharp eye) tends to attack me when i do the passing step. I feel more stable if i do the simple step, but i don´t know if it is ok,
We try to do our best with the Flos Duellatorum and the other book, but i still have the sensation of unaccuracy.

Can you recommend any book covering footwork and longsword combat?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Sam N.




Location: Beijing, China
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
Thanks Randall.
Thats what i wanted to mean when i said if footwork really matters, if passing and simple steps can be performing depending in the moment, instead of being tied to certain form of counter-attack.
I ask because i practise with my friend, we use not very orthodox home-made wooden wasters, with the size and the weight of a sword (Well, mine is only 110cm long), and when we simulate a fight my friend (Who has a very sharp eye) tends to attack me when i do the passing step. I feel more stable if i do the simple step, but i don´t know if it is ok,
We try to do our best with the Flos Duellatorum and the other book, but i still have the sensation of unaccuracy.

Can you recommend any book covering footwork and longsword combat?


The attacks on your passing step might not be because you are doing a passing step. What could be happening is that you are moving your leg before your hands (what George Silver calls "False Time"). By moving your leg before your hands, you are in essence telling your opponent "I will attack". This allows your opponent to intercept you before your attack is complete. It also gives your opponent an incentive to attack because you are coming into range without generating threat to force him to defend himself.

A passing step should work just as well as a simple step (better, I would argue, for most cuts), just make sure your hand starts the cut before moving your feet. Ideally, both should move at the same time, but the foot should never move before the hand.

I am sure there are many more people on this forum who can explain this better then I can.
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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep, 2008 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam N. wrote:
Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
Thanks Randall.
Thats what i wanted to mean when i said if footwork really matters, if passing and simple steps can be performing depending in the moment, instead of being tied to certain form of counter-attack.
I ask because i practise with my friend, we use not very orthodox home-made wooden wasters, with the size and the weight of a sword (Well, mine is only 110cm long), and when we simulate a fight my friend (Who has a very sharp eye) tends to attack me when i do the passing step. I feel more stable if i do the simple step, but i don´t know if it is ok,
We try to do our best with the Flos Duellatorum and the other book, but i still have the sensation of unaccuracy.

Can you recommend any book covering footwork and longsword combat?


The attacks on your passing step might not be because you are doing a passing step. What could be happening is that you are moving your leg before your hands (what George Silver calls "False Time"). By moving your leg before your hands, you are in essence telling your opponent "I will attack". This allows your opponent to intercept you before your attack is complete. It also gives your opponent an incentive to attack because you are coming into range without generating threat to force him to defend himself.

A passing step should work just as well as a simple step (better, I would argue, for most cuts), just make sure your hand starts the cut before moving your feet. Ideally, both should move at the same time, but the foot should never move before the hand.

I am sure there are many more people on this forum who can explain this better then I can.


This is most certainly the reason, Rodolfo. You move your hands and feet at the same time; when the foot movement is complete, your blade should also be in contact with your opponent (if he doesn't parry, that is).

M.

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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks you guys, it really helps me a lot.

I found this video showing some of the steps, Do you know
in wich Fechtbuch they are explained, or shown?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsPJEc50sgY

Thanks

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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A.A. Boskaljon




Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Joined: 08 Apr 2008

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not shure if these steps are explained in a origional book. But these steps do make sence if you combinate them with what germans like lichtenhauer and talhoffer are trying to tell you Happy
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Ken Berry




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Joined: 17 May 2008

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The book "Fighting with the German Longsword" by Christian Tobler is very good. My training partner and I have been working out of this book with (hopefully) very successful results. Also there is a DVD available on German longsword that is good. Both break down the footwork and techniques in an understandable way.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Di Grassi has a detailed explanation of footwork for his rapier stuff, but much of it is also applicable to other European forms:

http://www.musketeer.org/manuals/diGrassi/digrass1.htm

As for your problem, Rodolfo, have you considered the amount of lateral (side-by-side) movement you're making? One of the mistakes that made me suffer a lot of hits early in my German longsword training was an overly linear footwork--I wasn't moving to the sides enough, which gave me problems in achieving the correct range and geometry for counterattack techniques. Strangely enough, the thing that fixed this for me was more practice in aikido's circular footwork.
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
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Posts: 347

PostPosted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Di Grassi has a detailed explanation of footwork for his rapier stuff, but much of it is also applicable to other European forms:

http://www.musketeer.org/manuals/diGrassi/digrass1.htm

As for your problem, Rodolfo, have you considered the amount of lateral (side-by-side) movement you're making? One of the mistakes that made me suffer a lot of hits early in my German longsword training was an overly linear footwork--I wasn't moving to the sides enough, which gave me problems in achieving the correct range and geometry for counterattack techniques. Strangely enough, the thing that fixed this for me was more practice in aikido's circular footwork.


Hello Lafayette.
With my friend we tend to train a lot the aspect of side movement, and counterattacking, but somehow, it seems that there is something with my passing step that is tellign my friend where i´m going to hit.

For 45º, 135º degree chops, Do you perform passing steps too? (I´m right handed)

Thanks

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Sep, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hell Again guys,

When you talk about passing steps and such, are you refering to Meyer?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you recommend any book covering footwork and longsword combat?


THE SWORDMANS COMPANION by Guy Windsor covers everything you need to know about longsword combat and explains to you precisely how to move your feet and fight. Longsword is at least 50% in youre feet and if you aren't moving properly you die.

Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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A.A. Boskaljon




Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Joined: 08 Apr 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you should not say that it covers everything you need to know. His book is just an interpertation of what he thinks. Please, don't go blind on just 1 book of a average guy. We now have the possibility to look in lot's and lot's of old and new books. Make use of that possibility.
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
His book is just an interpertation of what he thinks

Have you read the book?????? Guy Windsor detests interpertation and his book is based on Fiore

Quote:
Please, don't go blind on just 1 book of a average guy


Actually you just called a world expert average... He has spent his life studying medieval history and martial arts. He runs Salle's in Finland, written two books on the subject, and has been paid to give lectures in the U.S.

Quote:
I think you should not say that it covers everything you need to know


No not EVERYTHING but it does tell you allot about longsword technique and footwork (particularly Italian).
And it does tell you what you need to survive a sword fight and give you a basis in historical longsword combat.

Quote:
We now have the possibility to look in lot's and lot's of old and new books. Make use of that possibility.


Yes we do, but many are based entirely on interpertation (Renaissance Medieval Swordsmanship comes to mind) or they are antique manuscripts that are written in ancient Italian/German/Latin which most of us can't read.
This is not the only book on the subject, nor should it be the only one you read, but it is arguably the best... Happy

Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chase S-R wrote:
Have you read the book?????? Guy Windsor detests interpertation and his book is based on Fiore

Chase

I must take issue with the above. I own The Swordman's Companion and I don't remember reading anything about detesting interpretations. Are you saying that in his book Guy's states that he detests "all" interpretations? If so, please provide a direct quote with the page number. If not then let us allow Guy speak for himself. I would find it highly unlikely that Guy detests all interpretations since that is all that we have today. An interpretation is all that Guy or anyone else has! Of couse, everyone values some interpretations over other interpretation and I think we all come across interpretations that we detests, but that is very different from destesting "all" interpretations. At this point I am assuming that you have mis-understood something Guy wrote or said.

Peace,

Ran Pleasant
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
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Posts: 347

PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the recomendations.

I was thinking that most fechtbuchs were made to keep the art alive, not to learn without the help of a true master. What do you think?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guy Winsor is just one of many good HEMAists in Scandinavia let alone the world.

Just chill a bit. No-one is denying that GW haven´t spend alot of hours with his art. His method of training has some flaws in my humble oppinion but still he has done alot for the HEMA in the last decades.

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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