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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat 06 Sep, 2008 6:08 am    Post subject: Please teach me about this illust.         Reply with quote

Hi Folks ^^

I think that there are many people with having watched this illust.
I searched it by various words and found this page.

http://www.mittelalter.uni-tuebingen.de/?q=pe...bauern.htm

But I don't read and understand this language...
Please teach it about this illustration. (why this knight is attacked?)
and teach it if there is the site that other pages can see of this book.


It is the biggest image while I looked for it.
http://www.picamatic.com/view/959719_Neues_Bild1/
I've some question.
a) Is this rondel dagger? (a man stub into the neck of the knight from behind.)
b) Why does the man of the right side do the blade of the ax behind? (A blow power is big such one?)

p.s.
My English is very poor, sorry...



 Attachment: 132.25 KB
knightat.jpg


I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Sep, 2008 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peasents attacking a knight. The dagger may be a bassilard based on the shape of the metal fitting on the hilt at the base of the blade ( remeniscient of SS and SA daggers which were based directly off Swiss bassilards). There are two fellas swinging the back of the axe, the fella on the right and on the left, booth are using the blunt backside of the axe as a concussion weapon to bash the fella in armour.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Sep, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Please teach me about this illust.         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
(why this knight is attacked?)


My German isn't very good, but I think the illustration depicts a number of builders attacking a knight during the Hundred Years' War period--you may already know that this was a series of dynastic wars between the ruling houses of England and France over the succession to the French throne, and it's one of the most extensively-studied medieval wars.

As far as we know, it's not so odd for peasants to attack soldiers if there was a factor that would allow them to overcome the soldier's advantage in skill and equipment--in this picture's case, it seems that the man-at-arms was traveling alone and the only friend he had was too far away to help him. The constant enmity between peasants and soldiers was the result of a vicious circle where the soldiers' depredations (there was no Geneva Convention back then) motivated the peasants to seek revenge whenever they could, which led to violent reprisals by the soldiers, and so on. These problems were often exacerbated by the lack of a strong law-enforcement authority, especially along the frontiers between English- and French-controlled territories.


Quote:
a) Is this rondel dagger? (a man stub into the neck of the knight from behind.)


The image isn't very clear, so the dagger could also be a quillon dagger with a funny pommel or a baselard--though my inexperienced eyes can't quite rule out the possibility of a rondel dagger.


Quote:
b) Why does the man of the right side do the blade of the ax behind? (A blow power is big such one?)


An axe blade could cleave through armor only in very rare occasions where the conditions are perfect; otherwise it would just glance off and might even hit the wielder. If the peasants had enough experience ambushing well-armored soldiers on previous occasions (like these peasants probably were) then they might have known about this, and so the axeman might have chosen to use the blunt back of his axe because it was a more reliable way to do damage through the horseman's armor.
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Frances Perry
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Sep, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Please teach me about this illust.         Reply with quote

Hello Ushio,

The image you are looking at is atributed to an author called Jean de Wavrin, Lord of Forestel (d.c.1475) (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehan_de_Waurin), and the language of the manuscript at the bottom of the illustration is French. It says on the page that this is one of the MS Fr 87 miniatures from Volume II of the Chronicle of England, and was created in the late 15th century. This, in itself, means you should be aware that it is a illustration what could be using late 15th century weapons / clothing styles, etc to represent an earlier period.

Literal translation of 'Bauern erschlagen einen Ritter' is Farmers kill a Knight'

For other illustrations from books attributed to Jean de Wavrin / Jean Wavrin, just put the name into the search engine here:

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/collections.asp...tarycombat

or here: http://www.bridgeman.co.uk/search/quick_search.asp

Interestingly, the Bridgeman Gallery suggests this could actually portray some kind of assasination, though does not go into any detail. This could explain why the knight is on his own, and his commrade does not appear to be rushing to help him but instead has his hand up rather like a signal to attack.

A possibility, but my question is, what are those frikkin' flying things circling the castle????

“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Sep, 2008 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: Please teach me about this illust.         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
The image isn't very clear, so the dagger could also be a quillon dagger with a funny pommel or a baselard--though my inexperienced eyes can't quite rule out the possibility of a rondel dagger.


It is a rondel dagger.
One of the other peasants has the same hanging from his belt.


Quote:
b) Why does the man of the right side do the blade of the ax behind? (A blow power is big such one?)

Axes are frequently represented this way, especially when wielded by peasants. Because it's how they use it to slay pigs. Note that he could be aiming at the horse.


Quote:
A possibility, but my question is, what are those frikkin' flying things circling the castle????

Why, dragons of course Happy

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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat 27 Sep, 2008 3:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, everybody.
A reply is late... I'm sorry...
I still examine it, but the details are unclear...

to Lafayette C Curtis
> My German isn't very good, but I think the illustration depicts a number of builders attacking a knight during the Hundred
> Years' War period--you may already know that this was a series of dynastic wars between the ruling houses of England and
> France over the succession to the French throne, and it's one of the most extensively-studied medieval wars.
>
> As far as we know, it's not so odd for peasants to attack soldiers if there was a factor that would allow them to overcome
> the soldier's advantage in skill and equipment--in this picture's case, it seems that the man-at-arms was traveling alone and
> the only friend he had was too far away to help him. The constant enmity between peasants and soldiers was the result of a
> vicious circle where the soldiers' depredations (there was no Geneva Convention back then) motivated the peasants to seek revenge
> whenever they could, which led to violent reprisals by the soldiers, and so on. These problems were often exacerbated by the
> lack of a strong law-enforcement authority, especially along the frontiers between English- and French-controlled territories.
I think so, too.
Thank you for explaining it in detail.


to Frances Perry
>
> Interestingly, the Bridgeman Gallery suggests this could actually portray some kind of assasination, though does not go into any
> detail. This could explain why the knight is on his own, and his commrade does not appear to be rushing to help him but instead has
> his hand up rather like a signal to attack.
I looked at the site(Bridgeman Gallery) that you teached.
If it is assassination... I can see so it!!!
I thought that the knight who raised a hand was going to help an attacked knight so far.
However, I feel reverse now.
Mmm, it is a mysterious picture...

> A possibility, but my question is, what are those frikkin' flying things circling the castle????
I look like a big bird to me, hawks or eagles etc...


to Fabrice Cognot
> Why, dragons of course
Laughing Out Loud ^^;


I want to teach it if there is a person knowing the details of this picture.
Thnks ^^

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 09 Nov, 2009 1:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all. Happy

I found the story of contents same as this illust. (Unlike the contents of the story... though the knight does not fall from his horse...) Wink

Froissart's Chronicles: A venturesome knight is felled by a butcher
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/m...risbar.htm

Quote:
Now it happened one Tuesday morning, when the English were beginning to decamp, and had set fire to all the villages wherein they were lodged, so that the fires were distinctly seen from Paris, a knight of their army, who had made a vow the preceding day that he would advance as far as the barriers and strike them with his lance, did not break off his oath, but set off with his lance in his hand, his target on his neck, and completely armed except his helmet, and spurring his steed, was followed by his squire on another courser carrying the helmet.
When he approached Paris, he put on the helmet, which his squire laced behind. He then galloped away, sticking spurs into his horse, and advanced prancing to strike the barriers. They were then open; and the lords and barons within imagined he intended to enter the town, but he did not mean any such thing, for , having struck the gates according to his vow, he checked his horse and turned about. The French knights who saw him thus retreat cried out to him, "Get away! get away! thou hast well acquitted thyself."

As for the name of this knight, I am ignorant of it, nor do I know from what country he came; but he bore for his arms gules a deux fosses noir with une bodure noir non endentee.

However, an adventure befell him, form which he had not so fortunate an escape. On his return, he met a butcher on the pavement in the suburbs, a very strong man, who had noticed him as he had passed him, and had in his hand a very sharp and heavy hatchet with a long handle.

As the knight was returning alone, and in a careless manner, the valiant butcher came on one side of him, and gave him such a blow between the shoulders that he fell on his horse's neck: he recovered himself, but the butcher repeated the blow on his head to that the axe entered it. The knight, through excess of pain, fell to the earth; and the horse galloped away to the squire, who was waiting for his master in the fields at the extremity of the suburbs.

The squire caught the courser, but wondered what was become of his master; for he had seen him gallop to the barriers, strike them, and then turn about to come back. He therefore set out to look for him; but he had not gone many paces before he saw him in the hands of four fellows, who were beating him as if they were hammering on an anvil: this so much frightened the squire that he dared not advance further, for he saw he could not give him any effectual assistance: he therefore returned as speedily as he could.

Thus was this knight slain: and those lords who were posted at the barriers had him buried in holy ground. The squire returned to the army, and related the misfortune which had befallen his master. All his brother-warriors were greatly angered thereat; and they marched to take up their quarters for the night, between Montlehery and Paris, upon a small river, where they encamped at an early hour in the day.



I don't know whether this illust shows this story or not...
But I think that there is the possibility...
The reason is...

Froissart's Chronicles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froissart%27s_Chronicles
Quote:
The text of Froissart's Chronicles is preserved in more than 100 manuscripts which are illustrated by a variety of miniaturists.

-------------------------------

Mr. Fabrice Cognot wrote:
Quote:
Axes are frequently represented this way, especially when wielded by peasants. Because it's how they use it to slay pigs. Note that he could be aiming at the horse.

I found this image: http://zeruge.hp.infoseek.co.jp/images/fig089.png (sorry, I mistake link address. Now I changed address.)
Thsanks. Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Nov, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a really interesting picture and story, and they do seem to go together.

A couple of things.

What is the knight wearing on his torso? Brigandine with a plackard? something similar?

Also, several images of combatants with pollaxes in Joachim Meyer's fechtbuch appear to be swinging their axes bacxkwards. I suspect that there is a rather complex reason that I haven't begun to delve into.
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Mon 09 Nov, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Shackleton wrote:
What is the knight wearing on his torso? Brigandine with a plackard? something similar?


Studies have shown that armor of that type is not brigandine, but merely fabric-covered plate designed to simulate brigandines.

Quote:
Also, several images of combatants with pollaxes in Joachim Meyer's fechtbuch appear to be swinging their axes bacxkwards. I suspect that there is a rather complex reason that I haven't begun to delve into.


Actually, there's a very simple reason: You can almost never cut plate with an edge, and worse, an axe blade wobbles when it hits plate, robbing the blow of a lot of its force. It also tends to slip off of plate, robbing the blow of even more force. The striking weapon of the pollaxe is the hammer, at least when it comes to hitting helmets and pauldrons, etc. The hammers' surfaces were often textured to make the hammer face "stick" more, ensuring more of the force was transmitted to the target. Blades on axes could be used for delicate targets (e.g., in the 15th-century novel Le Petite Jehan de Saintré, we read of the axe blade being specifically mentioned to strike the fingers of an opponent's hand--but the author makes a big deal of mentioning the part of the axe, when he normally didn't do so), and to chop weapon shafts in group combat. But for hitting someone in the head, the back of an axe is almsot always a better weapon choice.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Dan Sellars





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PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov, 2009 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Craig Shackleton wrote:
What is the knight wearing on his torso? Brigandine with a plackard? something similar?


Studies have shown that armor of that type is not brigandine, but merely fabric-covered plate designed to simulate brigandines.



do you have a cite for this?
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Sellars wrote:
Hugh Knight wrote:
Craig Shackleton wrote:
What is the knight wearing on his torso? Brigandine with a plackard? something similar?


Studies have shown that armor of that type is not brigandine, but merely fabric-covered plate designed to simulate brigandines.



do you have a cite for this?


Sadly, no, for which I apologize. I'm just quoting folks over at the Arms and Armor forum, if I recall the source of the discussion correctly. As I understand it, however, this isn't a widely disputed fact among the folks who study this period (I have foused on 14th century armor until recently). It's kind of like a later development of the velvet-covered brestplate at the Bayrisches Nationalmuseum.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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