Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > What do you think about this video Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: What do you think about this video         Reply with quote

Hello guys,
If you have time, check this video and tell me what do you think...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=related

It is soooo awesome...
Longsword fencing should be in the olimpics... xD

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
View user's profile Send private message
J. D. Carter




Location: Az.
Joined: 09 May 2007

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Been in my favorites for some time now. It's not just a treat to watch the display of so many offensive and defensive moves with the long sword but the combination of the combatants dress and that hazy,foggy background rolling around all that old stone work IMO makes it a cut above many similar videos artistically.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 702

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I've been breaking this down for about 6 months now. It's just superb.
Winter is coming
View user's profile Send private message
Brian K.
Industry Professional



Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Joined: 01 Jan 2008

Posts: 717

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. D. Carter wrote:
Been in my favorites for some time now. It's not just a treat to watch the display of so many offensive and defensive moves with the long sword but the combination of the combatants dress and that hazy,foggy background rolling around all that old stone work IMO makes it a cut above many similar videos artistically.


I agree. I watched it several times in a row and still didn't catch it all. What a treat! Thanks for posting this!

Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have no words to describe the beauty of longsword fencing, it is really awesome.
Have you seen 1:53 ?! Eek!
Can somebody explain me how the left guy got both swords?


There are other ones too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=related

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 702

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
I have no words to describe the beauty of longsword fencing, it is really awesome.
Have you seen 1:53 ?! Eek!
Can somebody explain me how the left guy got both swords?


You know I think I understand it. Give me a session with my study group to work it out and I'll get back to you.

Winter is coming
View user's profile Send private message
Cory Winslow




Location: Salisbury, Maryland
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:

Can somebody explain me how the left guy got both swords?


Hi Rodolfo,

In the Liechtenauer tradition there is a category of techniques known as "schwert nehmen" or "sword taking". These techniques are achieved by binding with your opponent's sword, then gripping his sword with one or both hands, and by using superior leverage, taking it away from him.

I have never seen the exact variation shown in this video at 1:53 in any period manual, but it is very similar to a schwert nehmen technique shown in several fechtbücher throughout the tradition. In this technique you bind in the middle with the opponent's sword, grab with your inverted left hand on both your blades where they meet, holding them together, then use your right hand to drive your hilt and right forearm under both of his wrists, then pull back up to your right side, bringing both swords with you.

Two pictures of this in mid action can be seen in Hans Talhoffer's Fechtbuch 1459 Thott here:
http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0181.jpg
http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0182.jpg
The man on the left in the first image, who is then the closest to us in the second image, is the one performing the sword taking. The only difference between these images and how I described the technique above is that the opponent, who is getting his sword taken, also has his left hand gripping his sword (this is because in the images they were both practicing half-sword techniques usually used in armoured fighting).
This technique can also be seen in Codex Wallerstein here from a "normal" grip: http://thearma.org/Manuals/50.jpg
(The counter by getting behind him and slicing his neck is shown here: http://thearma.org/Manuals/207.jpg )

The version in the video seems to show a variation where the cut is received while in half-sword on the left, then both blades are gripped together with the left hand while the pommel is driven under the opponent's right wrist only, before his sword is taken by pulling up to the right.

I hope this helps!

-Cory

Visit our school at:
www.memag.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 702

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not to hijack this thread but I was about to comment on their messer techniques when I saw yours Cory. Good show man! It really wonderful how your group has evolved. If I was closer I'd love the opportunity to train with you all. And now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
Winter is coming
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 702

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Cory for that ARMA link. That picture really drives it home for me. I Can't wait till my group meets again! Also after watching both Cory's and Their Messer videos I wonder if this carried over to single sword as well. I would assume that the techniques would transfer from weapon to weapon, with slight modifications based on the physics of the weapon in question, for simplicities sake? If I'm thinking wrong here please correct me.
Winter is coming
View user's profile Send private message
Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Cory, some techniques are performed so fast that i just can even wonder how a guy ends with both swords, or counterattacking a thrust like in the las technique of the video.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
View user's profile Send private message
Cory Winslow




Location: Salisbury, Maryland
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully we'll get the chance to train together some day.

As for this technique transferring over to other weapons, here is a slightly different variation of it in Hans Lecküchner's Kunst des Messerfechtens:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00002184/image..._00266.jpg

Here's a really quick translation:

"Note, he cuts a cut from above (oberhau) against you, so cut also simultaneously with one to him. Meanwhile (Indes) wind your messer with the horizontal (zwirch) on his and grip meanwhile with your left arm over both messers, that both points are below you and stand under your left shoulder. Meanwhile drive with your hilt under through his right arm and wind your hilt outside over his right hand and wrench strongly over on your right side etc..."

Hi Rodolfo,
Don't mention it!

-Cory

Visit our school at:
www.memag.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cory Winslow wrote:
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully we'll get the chance to train together some day.

As for this technique transferring over to other weapons, here is a slightly different variation of it in Hans Lecküchner's Kunst des Messerfechtens:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00002184/image..._00266.jpg

Here's a really quick translation:

"Note, he cuts a cut from above (oberhau) against you, so cut also simultaneously with one to him. Meanwhile (Indes) wind your messer with the horizontal (zwirch) on his and grip meanwhile with your left arm over both messers, that both points are below you and stand under your left shoulder. Meanwhile drive with your hilt under through his right arm and wind your hilt outside over his right hand and wrench strongly over on your right side etc..."

Hi Rodolfo,
Don't mention it!

-Cory


I remember a friend who told me that Renaissance martial arts existed, because a Japanese traveled to Europe, and teached them how to fight with swords. XD.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
View user's profile Send private message
Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional



Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The technique at 1:53 is in so-called Codex Wallerstein :


Item ein gucz swert nemen wenn dir ainer an das swert pint so val im mit deiner tencken hant in paid swercz klingen und gee mit dem knopf und mit der rechten hant unten durch sein swert und zeuch hinter sich als hie gemalt stet so nimstu im das swert

Except that in the vid he begins it with swords crossed with his own point low. But it works from a 'normal' bind as well.

PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cory Winslow




Location: Salisbury, Maryland
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yep, that's the one. Thanks for posting the caption, my copy of Codex Wallerstein is being used elsewhere at the moment.

For those who don't speak German it roughly translates to:

"Note, a good sword-taking. When one binds you on the sword, then fall in with your left hand in both sword blades and go with the pommel and with the right hand under through his sword and pull behind as depicted here, so you take the sword from him."

-Cory

Visit our school at:
www.memag.net


Last edited by Cory Winslow on Thu 28 Aug, 2008 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello guys.
I see that some of you are fencers, and or are very well informed about the subject.
I was thinking about this woodcut:

See the armored Maximilian with the sword?
The fact is that there are many woodcuts and ilustrations of the first half of the XVI century, showing armored cavalrymen, with longswords.
Since most of you know about the physics of the longsword, What do you think about its use from horseback?



 Attachment: 107.7 KB
Gendarme Triumphal Arch Woodcut Durer.JPG


¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
View user's profile Send private message
Cory Winslow




Location: Salisbury, Maryland
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm no horseman, so I can't really comment on the subject, but there are several books showing the use of the longsword on horseback.

Here is a link to the Paulus Kal Fechtbuch which shows several techniques starting here:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00001840/image...p;seite=24

I hope this helps.

-Cory

Visit our school at:
www.memag.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional



Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Rodolfo

It would be better to open a new thread.

But to answer quickly : a sword is a sword, no matter long or short. Swords with long grips were quite fashionable in Maximilian's time, and they also were a mark of status. Hence their presence on artwork from this specific period.

And, as said : a sword is a sword. The fact that we qualify these types with the term 'longswords' doesn't mean they would have a specific, restricted, pedestrian two-handed use. Fiore die Liberi uses the same type of swords, wether one handed or two handed, on foot or on horseback.

And, thirdly : a sword is a sword - related to what I said above, it's not because you're on horseback and in armour, that you can't at some point need to fight on foot.


So, to answer (really) your question : horseback sword techniques are more affected by the horse than by the type of sword you're using (speaking of straight, double-edged swords of this specific period).



Edited after Cory's edit Wink

PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.


Last edited by Fabrice Cognot on Thu 28 Aug, 2008 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 818

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very cool video! In fact, I added it to my FaceBook profile! Man, I wish I learned to do that! They make that look so easy, don't they?
"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
View user's profile Send private message
Cory Winslow




Location: Salisbury, Maryland
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Fabrice,

Thanks for catching that, it has been corrected!

Take care,
Cory

Visit our school at:
www.memag.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Lewis





Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: this video         Reply with quote

Medieval sword and knife fighting should be in the olimpics in my view, there are so many sports in the olimpics that should not be there like volley ball, it's ok for the beach but not the olimpics.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > What do you think about this video
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum