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Jonathan Eells





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 9:22 am    Post subject: What would Svante Nilsson Sture do?         Reply with quote

So there I was, gazing at the Svante one day, and it hits me. [Ow, I said, that was a frikkin' SWORD that just hit me.]

Has anybody else looked at the three voids in the pommel of the Svante and said to themselves "I bet there needs to be something in those. Something shiny."

So yesterday I dropped the Svante in its box off at my friendly local jeweler's. The guy who owns the shop is a friend of mine, and one day I just happened to mention this wild haired idea to him. "How about putting some jewels into the pommel of a sword I have?" His response may have been lukewarm at the time... "F'n COOL!" or something like that. Originally I was thinking about real stones, but then I remembered that I have a replica Svante... so, yes, I'm putting in not-necessarily genuine stones but nevertheless still hard and very shiny ones.

I've chosen colors and arrangement suitable for a bloody big war knife, mostly pointed at the Danes. Should be interesting. I had considered choosing stones with Swedish national colors, but yellow in a gemstone? It's hard for me not to think "Piss rock". So I skipped the blue and yellow idea.

Apologies to any purists who just fell over backwards. "He's adding something - ADDING! - to his Svante?!? The HORROR." I'll post pictures when it's all done, naturally.
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Sam Haverkamp
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Jewel Encrusted SVANTE         Reply with quote

J.W.E,
I always like reading your posts, your one of those rare souls that speaks what he thinks and feels!
I think its a solid idea. It was not uncommon for blades of the wealthy or of high station to be adorned with Jewels. I say go for it!
Im looking for some drawings for your shields, more to come...
Sam
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Jonathan Atkin





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

post some pictures when you can that should be something to see! Big Grin
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, Peter Johnsson's hypothesis on the subject based upon historic research is that there were probably three iconic figures of saints in the recesses since lost, so your idea of putting something in there is probably going to make your Svante more historically correct rather then less so.
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That sounds awesome...

I for one am looking forward to having a scabbard made for the Svante...

I'm looking forward to hearing updates on this thread...
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Jonathan Eells





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Saints!?!         Reply with quote

Russ, I didn't know that about Peter's hypothesis. Interesting! The little voids in the pommel do look rather like tiny alcoves, such as what you'd see a statue in. Nice bit of info there. Maybe I could put in little figurines of my own choosing... George Carlin, Eddie Izzard, and Jackie Mason, maybe.

I'm going for garnets and and artificial diamonds of some sort (not a CZ) that my jeweler buddy assures me is hard and long-lifed. I didn't know this, but he told me that cubic zirconia are easy to scratch and don't hold up over time. Who knew.

Damn. Now you've put the bug in my ear for little holy figures. I keep seeing Odin, Freya, and Thor! That would be a serious kick in the pants. Svante, on the other hand, might be slightly turning in his grave. Sorry, Sture-dude. I'd have to make the little figures myself, which is the cue for the gong to sound; I'm not particularly artful in that way. Need a castle smashed to rubble, or somebody disassembled at their ligatures, then I'm your guy. But carve a little figurine that looks pretty and conveys some, as the French say, "I don't know what"... I'm NOT that guy.

I'm told to expect the job done in August. Pictures then!
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you or anyone have a scabbard for the Svante? I never did see images of Peter's scabbard design for the Svante, nor anyone's for that matter...

Small carved figurines sound cool... You know, you could put some small gems ON the figurines and do a combo deal...

figurines dressed in gems would be very cool and you could use tiny rare gems in such a case... Hmmmm now you got me thinking...
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:
Do you or anyone have a scabbard for the Svante? I never did see images of Peter's scabbard design for the Svante, nor anyone's for that matter...

Small carved figurines sound cool... You know, you could put some small gems ON the figurines and do a combo deal...

figurines dressed in gems would be very cool and you could use tiny rare gems in such a case... Hmmmm now you got me thinking...


Chris, I'm not sure if you were talking to Jonathan or me. I can say that I do NOT have a scabbard for a Svante despite owning the sword or have I seen one that I recall. I've got a definite idea for one though when the opportunity presents itself... Happy

Back to the original topic,

I'm quite sure that Sture would be appalled at the idea of pagan gods in the recesses, he was after all a 15th/16th century nobleman. I'm guessing something more like Bridgett, Gall, and Sigfrid although I can't remember if Peter ever hazarded a guess as to what saints the recesses might have contained... Of course there are three recesses and the trinity does come to mind...

Having said that of course, there's nothing to say that you have to be dead on Jonathan and as noted before, putting something in those recesses is probably more historically accurate then having nothing there...

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Sam Haverkamp
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Jul, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Tiny saints or Sinners?         Reply with quote

Hmmm,
Looks like a good place for some very small metal dudes.
Sounds like fun Happy
S
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Jul, 2008 2:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan, I find it exiting that you choose to further customize this sword! It is very much in the spirit of the original.
There is a lot of art work to look at if you are interested in finding a type of embellishment that is in period style with the original sword. If not, simply making this sword more your own sword is also a good thing.
Figurines would have been what the original had. Oakeshott once owned a famous type XX sword (XX.4 page 211 in "Records") that has the identical same pommel as the Svante Nilsson sword. Oakeshott wrote to me confirming that there had been figurines in the pommel of his sword. There were traces of the plinths or lugs they were fastened with/standing on.

If you want to know what these figurines might have looked like search for the hand and half sword of Duke Christopher the Strong of Bavaria. His ceremonial sword is slightly earlier, by a decade or so (made in the 1480´s), but the style has interesting similarities. The *grip* of this sword has alcoves. In these are placed figurines of various religious personages.

I have commented on this aspect of the pommel on the Svante Sword many times, I think you can find quotes on this subject if you do a search.

I think we might assume the figurines could have been Mary mother of God, together with Saint Georg and/or some other saint(s) with military significance.

Please post the result when it is finished!
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Jul, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Jonathan, I find it exiting that you choose to further customize this sword! It is very much in the spirit of the original.
There is a lot of art work to look at if you are interested in finding a type of embellishment that is in period style with the original sword. If not, simply making this sword more your own sword is also a good thing.
Figurines would have been what the original had. Oakeshott once owned a famous type XX sword (XX.4 page 211 in "Records") that has the identical same pommel as the Svante Nilsson sword. Oakeshott wrote to me confirming that there had been figurines in the pommel of his sword. There were traces of the plinths or lugs they were fastened with/standing on.

If you want to know what these figurines might have looked like search for the hand and half sword of Duke Christopher the Strong of Bavaria. His ceremonial sword is slightly earlier, by a decade or so (made in the 1480´s), but the style has interesting similarities. The *grip* of this sword has alcoves. In these are placed figurines of various religious personages.

I have commented on this aspect of the pommel on the Svante Sword many times, I think you can find quotes on this subject if you do a search.

I think we might assume the figurines could have been Mary mother of God, together with Saint Georg and/or some other saint(s) with military significance.

Please post the result when it is finished!


Ahh there's a thought, Saints with military rather then regional signifcance. In that case Mary, might be a good guess as would St. George and St. Michael.

Thanks for chiming in Peter, I always hate taking someone's name in vain... Happy

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Jonathan Eells





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PostPosted: Fri 11 Jul, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: This WILL be fun         Reply with quote

I am quite a fan of this conversation. Peter, thanks so much for jumping in! I am really glad to have your input and I adore the sword itself.

I mention this only as an aside, of course, but there are many "saints" who in fact inherited the qualities and lore of the Heathen Gods that the church sought to displace. Saint Ann, for instance, as the mother of Mary, took on some fertility goddess rites in central Europe that are in place to this day. Saint Olaf with his axe reminded Norsemen of certain Gods who wielded axes and even hammers. Saint Michael took over many of Odin's shrines at the tops of mountains. There's plenty of other examples, and it's one of my favorite non-sword conversations. It wouldn't hurt my feelings to place figures of saints who did a particularly thorough job of stepping into the shoes of a Heathen God into the pommel of my sword - except why go with the copy when you can have the original? It might be an obscure joke, but it's one that I'd get a giant kick in the pants out of as you can well guess. I'll have to beg Nilsson's suffrage of my provocations when I talk to him...
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Steve Maly




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul, 2008 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:

Ahh there's a thought, Saints with military rather then regional signifcance. In that case Mary, might be a good guess as would St. George and St. Michael.

Thanks for chiming in Peter, I always hate taking someone's name in vain... Happy


Perhaps St. Maurice would round out the triumvirate as he has particular military significance, though I'm not sure he had any Scandinavian significance!

"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." ~A. Maslow
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Jonathan Eells





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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul, 2008 6:23 am    Post subject: Egyptians         Reply with quote

St. Maurice, if you go by the legend, was supposed to have been Egyptian. The sword that Albion sells under that name was the one that beheaded him in one legend as a result of his disloyalty to the emperor and treason in Switzerland, I think it was. Thus, he died within sight of the northern countries, eh? But no, not Scandinavian.

I haven't yet paired the Maurice and the Ulvbane for practice. For some reason I'm creaky and old feeling this morning, when all I did yesterday was drive and go furniture shopping with my sweetie. Once I'm human again I'm getting the Ulv and Maury out to play with.

I looked up this blurb for Maury of Turin:

ST MAURICE [or MAURITIUS] (d. c. 286) , an early Christian martyr, who, with his companions, is commemorated by the Roman Catholic Church on the 22nd of September (Hey! A christian saint who's day of honor falls on a major pagan festival - the Equinox - how about that). The oldest form of his story is found in the Passio ascribed to Eucherius, bishop of Lyons, c . 45o, who relates how the " Theban " legion commanded by Mauritius was sent to north Italy to reinforce the army of Maximinian . Maximinian wished to use them in persecuting the Christians, but as they themselves were of this faith, they refused, and for this, after having been twice decimated, the legion was exterminated at Octodurum (Martigny) near Geneva . In late versions this legend was expanded and varied, the martyrdom was connected with a refusal to take part in a great sacrifice ordered at Octodurum and the name of Exsuperius was added to that of Mauritius . Gregory of Tours (c . 539—593) speaks of a company of the same legion which suffered at Cologne . The Magdeburg Centuries, in spite of Mauritius being the patron saint of Magdeburg, declared the whole legend fictitious; J . A. du Bordien La Legion thebeenne (Amsterdam, 17o5); J . J . Hottinger in Helvetische Kirchengeschichte (Zurich, 1708) ; and F . W .

Rettberg, Kirchengeschichte Deutschlands (Gottingen, 1845–1848) have also demonstrated its untrustworthiness, while the Bollandlsts, De Rivaz and Johann Friedrich uphold it . Apart from the a priori improbability of a whole legion being martyred, the difficulties are that in 286 Christians everywhere throughout the empire were NOT molested, that at no later date have we evidence of the presence of Maximinian in the Valais, and that none of the writers nearest to the event (Eusebius, Lactantius, Orosius, Sulpicius Severus) know anything of it . It is of course quite possible that isolated cases of officers being put to death for their faith occurred during Maximinian's reign, and on some such cases the legend may have grown up during the century and a half between Maximinian and Eucherius . The cult of St Maurice and the Theban legion is found in Switzerland (where two places bear the name in Valais, besides St Moritz in Grisons), along the Rhine, and in north Italy . The foundation of the abbey of St Maurice (Agaunum) in the Valais is usually ascribed to Sigismund of Burgundy (515) . Relics of the saint are preserved here and at Brieg and Turin.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Maly wrote:


Perhaps St. Maurice would round out the triumvirate as he has particular military significance, though I'm not sure he had any Scandinavian significance!


Another good thought. It prompted me to do an internet search on patron saints and there are several others that are the patron saint of soldiers as well. Adrian and Elgius? Who knew? In any event I'm a bit intrigued and did a bit more looking to see if their are any icons small enough commercially available to fit in the niches. My results were inconclusive, it seems like one possible solution would be to purchase a sterling or pewter patron saint medallion (there are plenty available for St. George and St. Michael at least) and cut them down for the purpose. If I had a bit more spare time it's a project I would address and in fact I may yet, I'm feeling a little inspired by our thread starter. I haven't played with my Svante much lately anyway and that's something of a shame.

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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a photo of the Sture scabbard Peter did from Bjorn Hellqvist's site (I wonder whatever happened to Bjorn...).


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Steve Maly




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Egyptians         Reply with quote

Jonathan Eells wrote:
St. Maurice, if you go by the legend, was supposed to have been Egyptian. The sword that Albion sells under that name was the one that beheaded him in one legend as a result of his disloyalty to the emperor and treason in Switzerland, I think it was. Thus, he died within sight of the northern countries, eh? But no, not Scandinavian.


While I realize St. Maurice was not Scandinavian, he is a Catholic saint, and therefore fair game? Since he is patron to many churches and holy sites in Switzerland, France, Italy and Germany (over 650 to be exact), it isn't a far stretch to think Scandinavians may also value his virtues as patron saint to armies and soldiers. However, no one said that the figures have to be of military significance, and may be more dependent upon Sture's ideas for the pommel as being more concerned about military victory in battle or protection of his soul. Mary might take care of the soul while St. George/Michael/Maurice would take care of the rest! Wink

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Antal László




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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jul, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
Here are some photos what I took at Owen Bushs forge in event at the end of March. Peter Johnson was there, with him his Svante sword. I like a lot the scabbard what he made for it. It is a beautiful work.



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Jonathan Eells





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PostPosted: Sat 27 Sep, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Gem encrusted? Not quite.         Reply with quote

Got my sword back from my jeweler this week. Snapped a few shots of the pommel. Enjoy.


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From a step away, the effect is subtle.

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This captures a bit of the luminescence of the gems.

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The gold frames - 14kt - keep the gems firmly seated within the steel.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Sep, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Jonathan, I see the Venetian sword you won in the contest in that photo Happy
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