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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 2:21 am    Post subject: Messer video         Reply with quote

Saw this video that was posted on the site of my Longsword school on the use of the messer:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ

To credit Maxime Chouinard who posted it on " lesduellistes " who is also a " myArmoury " Forum member:
http://lesduellistes.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=89

I wonder if a lot of this wouldn't also be applicable to the use of the one handed double edged sword with no shield ? Some techniques might depend on there only being one edge to be safely done but a lot of it might be generally applicable to all forms of swordsmanship of the period. ( Long dagger, rondel or ballock daggers might also use similar moves ? ).

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Adam Simmonds




Location: Henley-on-Thames
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks for posting this link,

i've seen a couple other videos from this same group on youtube (the ones entitled "some longsword fencing pieces after Danzig and Ringeck" and "fechten mit dem langenschwert" ) and they all appear, to my eyes at least, to be pretty impressive.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 4:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, I had wondered the same myself while watching that. Some of the techniques might be interchangeable, but with the extended reach of an arming sword, some will likely not be the best idea.

And it was about time that they put up another awesome vid Razz

I wonder where they film these? They're based in the UK and that's the second time I've seen that ruined church.

M.

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William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 5:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:


I wonder where they film these? They're based in the UK and that's the second time I've seen that ruined church.

M.


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Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great video has usual. Seems everything they touch turns into gold !

I wonder where they got those training messers from, would like to have a couple myself... Happy

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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice; I love the thrust under the garde and that last quick maneuver. I had their longsword vid on my favorites since before, so I just went ahead and added this one as well. Useful stuff. Happy
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Nathan Gilleland





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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I absolutely love it!

I think that many of the techniques can be interchanged for multiple styles, but each style would have to adapt it slightly, (or greatly) to work the most efficiently and effectively.

I think it's amazing what you can find on the internet regarding swords, medieval history, etc.

Another gem for me to bookmark!

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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Gilleland wrote:


I think that many of the techniques can be interchanged for multiple styles, but each style would have to adapt it slightly, (or greatly) to work the most efficiently and effectively.



It makes me think that there was a lot of stuff that was never written down but the general principles involved in this particular case seem so sophisticated that other weapon types must have used similar move adapted to the specific weapon and something like 1:33 could be compared to these techniques as it might inspire better comprehension of things lost in one tradition that was echoed in another: After all none of these techniques would exist in their own isolated world and except for formal duels where weapons might be closely matched, one would expect that a " master " of the messer might have to fight against someone differently armed, like longsword, polearm or sword and buckler.

Were 1:33 was an earlier discipline and the messer more a 14th to 16th century thing one might guess that some of the earlier techniques used in 1:33 would have influenced the later messer techniques or might there be other sword and buckler techniques not covered in 1:33 but existing in some " lost " to us styles that would be related to what we see with the messer ?.

Regionally sword and buckler might still have been popular while in other places they would have been replaced by messer or longsword ??? I think the English used sword and buckler later than in continental Europe ? Could be wrong there. Sword and shield/Targe/Rondache continuing into the 16th / 17th / 18th centuries as in Scotland.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Its a very well done video.

Regarding messer and arming swords, Talhoffer shows them interchangably. Plus, Leckuchner's messerfechten is laid out where you can see a heavy influence of the Liechtenauer tradition, where much of it is nearly identicle, or close to it, except that many of the names of things are changed. So his system blends directly into the Liechtenauer tradition, which includes all manner of weapons from longsword to poleax, which are all interrelated. So its not much of a stretch to say that messer techniques probably overlapped with arming sword to the point where they were used in nearly the same manner.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
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