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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Fri 02 May, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Jacobite-era Swords with Pedigrees         Reply with quote

I am personally aware of only a small handful of swords that have a 'named' connection to a figure in the Jacobite period or 1715-1746. For instance, Charles Stewart of Ardshiel and Cameron of Lochiel's basket hilts are well illustrated. Even the basket hilt purported to have been presented to Prince Charles is know. But how about some others? Does any one have a picture of Lord George Murray's sword? What about a basket hilt belonging to Arthur, Lord Balmirano? Or the Duke of Perth? Any leads of help would be appreciated.
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
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PostPosted: Sat 03 May, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi George,

In Culloden The Swords and Sorrows there is a picture of the smallsword belonging to Lord Strathallan and I think there is also the smallsword of Farquarson of Monaltrie. The basket hilt of the Earl of Cromartie (made by one of the Allans) is also illustrated there (a beautyful basket hilt with bronze or brass inlay). http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=113
In Drummonds book Keppochs sword is illustrated. I think Thomas MacDonald (of this forum) managed to find out where this sword resides today, and I think also it was in one of the museums in Scotland.
I think I've seen an illustration on this forum of a sword claimed to have belonged to the Duke of Perth but I think the hilt looked like it was made post 1750...

You might also be interested to see the targe and pistol said to have been lost at Clifton by John Roy Stuart, commander of the Edinburgh Volunteers:
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/virtualmuseum/fetch_ima...mg0051.jpg
This round shield or 'targe' belonged to John Roy Stuart, a Jacobite Captain, who lost it when he and his Badenoch men stayed at Lowther Hall, Clifton, Northumberland on the eve of the Clifton fight in 1745. The Jacobites were adherents of James VII of Scotland and his descendants, the Stuarts, believing that the British Throne should be theirs. The dispute divided many families and eventually led to defeat at the Battle of Culloden and the subsequent suppression of the Highlands by the Hanoverians. The targe is made of wood, covered by ox leather, tooled with a key-like design and studded in a circular pattern with round-headed brass rivets and four larger round bosses. The central boss is decorated with hearts and has a dirk screwed into it, making it a weapon as well as a defence.

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/virtualmuseum/fetch_ima...mg0048.jpg
Item: gun pistol flintlock.pistol
Catalogue#: ABDUA 18038
Scottish flintlock-pistol, with scroll decoration on the butt, other decoration includes hearts, diamonds & geometric patterns. This pistol is possibly an early example of the work of Thomas Cadel or Cadell, a pistol manufacturer active from around 1700. (This latter information obtained in a personal communication from Dr. A V B Norman). See also ABDUA 17619. 'Said to have belonged to have belonged to Cpt [Col.?] John Roy Stuart. Captain Stuart and his Badenoch men stayed at Lowther Hall on the eve of the Clifton fight and there lost his kit and his servant.'


Both these items are now in the posession of the University of Aberdeen. The images were too large to attach here.

Cheers,
Henrik

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Justin King
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PostPosted: Sat 03 May, 2008 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not precisely Jacobite-related but I was wondering if you caught the thread awhile back on Rob Roy's and Ardshiel's swords?
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=ardshiel
Not sure of pedigrees but an interesting bit of sword-related history at the least. Spilled the blood of a legend and all that...
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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Sat 03 May, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Henrik and Justin...I appreciate the information. I was aware of the ones illustrated in S&TS and other standard reference sources but there must be others sprikled around in museums and private collections. I was really hoping someone might have a line on Lord George Murray's sword since he was related to the Duke of Atholl.

Yes, Justin I saw the thread on the Rob Roy and Charles Stewart swords and copied those off for my scrapbook. Those two swords are perfect examples of items that are in private collections but seldom make the public eye. Thank goodness Paul McDonald took the time to post them.

One other that probably has a historical pedigree (once again the S&TS) is the one shown in the portrat of Major David Tulloch. While not crisp, there is certainly enough detail to one reproduced as a speciman.

Anyone else know of an exaample? (Where is Mac when you need him Worried )

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Todd Salazar





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PostPosted: Sat 03 May, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello GG, Justin and Henrick,

I've also wondered what the sword of Lord George Murray would've looked like. Until recently, I know that my John Allan baskethilt pictured below came from a private collection in Holland, the same country where Lord George Murray died in 1760. Of course, I'm not suggesting anything here but I do feel that further research is needed in this matter. I've thought about emailing the Murray Clan about any photos or stories of any the relics of Lord George Murray. Incidentally, the Murray Clan crest also has stars in it like the stars in the saltire of my John Allan. In addition, only somebody like a clan chief (like Lord George Murray) would've had the funds to own a baskethilt like a John or Walter Allan. What do you guys think?

Sincerely,
Todd



 Attachment: 27.02 KB
JAS baskethilt2.JPG

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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 386

PostPosted: Mon 05 May, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George,
Here's the sword of Donald Robertson of Woodsheal who led the Robertsons out in the '45 in Robertson of Struans name, which he carried at Culloden (the one to the top-left in the picture).

It resides in the Clan Donnachaid center in Scotland. http://www.donnachaidh.com/

Todd,
In the portrait of Lord George Murray he is holding a sword which looks like a well made sword of fairly conventional pattern. Lord George was a big consumer of swords if the sources I've read are to be believed: He broke two swords at Culloden (and lost his wig, which he usually placed in his pocket before going in action).
I wouldn't doubt that he had swords made by reputed makers, but I wouldn't speculate too much if your sword may be his. I would be thrilled just knowing that it is a real John Allan sword. Wink

Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
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PostPosted: Mon 05 May, 2008 4:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:
George,
Here's the sword of Donald Robertson of Woodsheal who led the Robertsons out in the '45 in Robertson of Struans name, which he carried at Culloden (the one to the top-left in the picture).

It resides in the Clan Donnachaid center in Scotland. http://www.donnachaidh.com/

Todd,
In the portrait of Lord George Murray he is holding a sword which looks like a well made sword of fairly conventional pattern. Lord George was a big consumer of swords if the sources I've read are to be believed: He broke two swords at Culloden (and lost his wig, which he usually placed in his pocket before going in action).
I wouldn't doubt that he had swords made by reputed makers, but I wouldn't speculate too much if your sword may be his. I would be thrilled just knowing that it is a real John Allan sword. Wink

Cheers,
Henrik


PS. Check out this: It shows some more pictures of Rob Roys and Ardsheals swords.
http://images.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://...%26hl%3Dno

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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Mon 05 May, 2008 7:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Henrik....as ever you are a gold mine of information. Do you know if Paul made a picture of the front panel of Rob Roy's sword? I sure would like something with a bit more detail. But, as ever, Thanks!!

Now if we could just pin Lord George down...sigh!

"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
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PostPosted: Mon 05 May, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, George. But finding those pictures of the MacGregor sword and the Ardsheal sword was a lucky stroke. I just googled jacobite basket hilt and searched images. A bit less work than it usually is finding interesting material, but simple may turn out to be rewarding from time to time.

Cheers,
Henrik

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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Tue 06 May, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not to change the subject too much, but take a look at what showed up on ebay this afternoon. The notes on the auction states that the owner vetted the sword with George Newman at the Baltimore show and got a date of 1650 or so. The blade shows Germananic talisman marks but no 'Andrea Ferara'.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-1600s-Ribbon-Hilt-S...dZViewItem



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b14f_0.jpg


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Todd Salazar





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PostPosted: Sun 11 May, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
In the portrait of Lord George Murray he is holding a sword which looks like a well made sword of fairly conventional pattern. Lord George was a big consumer of swords if the sources I've read are to be believed: He broke two swords at Culloden (and lost his wig, which he usually placed in his pocket before going in action).


Yes Henrik, I would agree and have also observed that the sword that Lord George Murray is holding in his portrait is of a fairly conventional pattern. However, recall that before I had the sword restored by Donnie Shearer, the sword had a non-conventional blade and pommel with the John Allan basket. Therefore, this John Allan basket had it's blade broken and then rehilted with a non-conventional blade and pommel at some point in time by somebody located in Europe. I've also been told by several museum curators and Donnie that only those important people of the higher class in Scotland (say a Clan Chief) would have been able to afford to carry a John Allan basket. In addition, Lord George Murray was after all the fifth son of John Murray, the 1st Duke of Atholl and the chief of Clan Murray. Therefore, I have to believe that it is possible that Lord George Murray might have and could have carried a John Allan basket hilt. Despite all of this, I haven't put any stock into this being the actual baskethilt of Lord George Murray. However, it definitely belonged to somebody important, we just can't say who. The truth is that this John Allan baskethilt has never been seen up close by any of the museum curators in the United Kingdom, therefore, they might deny it's existence. Therefore, I'm doing and will continue to do further research. I'll let you guys know what I find out if anything.

Respectfully yours,
Todd



 Attachment: 32.35 KB
JAS picture 1.jpg
John Allan before restoration by Donnie.
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
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Posts: 386

PostPosted: Tue 20 May, 2008 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
Not to change the subject too much, but take a look at what showed up on ebay this afternoon. The notes on the auction states that the owner vetted the sword with George Newman at the Baltimore show and got a date of 1650 or so. The blade shows Germananic talisman marks but no 'Andrea Ferara'.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-1600s-Ribbon-Hilt-S...dZViewItem

There's something about the blade and the markings which makes me think the original blade has been replaced with a Sudaneese kashkara blade...

Todd,
I hope you don't feel offended by my post. I'm fascinated with your sword and am impressed by the restoring Donnie did for you. Is that blade really so unconventional, as it does resemble many other unfullered blades I've seen on other original. In any case the replaced blade will probably have come from Germany just like any possible previous blade it may have been fitted with. I must say getting hold of a sword by the Allen family is impressive alone as they are of so high quality and so reputed for their uniqe finish.

Cheers,
Henrik

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Todd Salazar





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PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No offense taken Henrik. I've not been able to get any new information from Archivist, Jane Anderson at Blair Castle about any of the swords that Lord George Murray might have carried in the 1740s. They also have no list of Lord George’s possessions that were taken with him to Holland while he was in exile there. As a result, we know nothing more about this. Oh well! Happy They also sent me the attached pictures of Lord George Murray at Culloden.

Thanks,
Todd



 Attachment: 16.59 KB
Lord-George-Murray-at-Cullo.jpg
Lord George Murray at Culloden

 Attachment: 41.18 KB
Lord George Murray at Culloden 2 [ Download ]
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