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Igor Zeler




Location: UK
Joined: 08 Dec 2006

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 2:10 am    Post subject: Coat-of-plates probably italian         Reply with quote

Hi
I found very interesting pattern of coat-of-plates. It base on archeological finding probably from Italy.
Does someone know anything else about this cop? I am looking for every information and photos.
Greetings


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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A similar pattern is shown in Ospreys Italian Militia Man, I can have a look for the source tonight, when it is in the reference list.
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Doug Strong




Location: Chicago, IL (Suburbs)
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, USA
Inventory Number: 29.150.105
Provenance: The Bashford Dean collection; From Chalcis.
Publications: Arms and Armour. Stephen Granscay (Fig. 93.2); Armi e Armature Lombarde, Lionello G. Boccia, Francesco Rossi and Marco Morin. (p. 50-51, fig. 32); Helmets and Body Armour in Modern Warfare, Bashford Dean.


Some of the plates retain their original tinning either in part or in whole. The covering is made of a double thickness of heavy canvas. At the center of the back there is a spinal depression.

Dr. Douglas W. Strong
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/
http://armourresearchsociety.org
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doug Strong wrote:
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, USA
Inventory Number: 29.150.105
Provenance: The Bashford Dean collection; From Chalcis.
Publications: Arms and Armour. Stephen Granscay (Fig. 93.2); Armi e Armature Lombarde, Lionello G. Boccia, Francesco Rossi and Marco Morin. (p. 50-51, fig. 32); Helmets and Body Armour in Modern Warfare, Bashford Dean.


Some of the plates retain their original tinning either in part or in whole. The covering is made of a double thickness of heavy canvas. At the center of the back there is a spinal depression.


So it buckles in the front?

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven,

The point at the bottom there would indicate the front to me but I have never seen this in person. Having that at the back would seem.... uncomfortable.

Doug,

What is it dated? If from Chalcis we can assume pre 1470 when the turks took over right.

RPM
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the picture from Ilaian Militiaman http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EEXSHX3DL._SL500_.jpg

The plates are a little larger. In the text they say that the drawing was based on wall paintings from Avio castle in Northern Italy. The paintings are dated to the first half of the 14th cent. when I remember correctly.
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional



Location: Jeffersonville USA
Joined: 27 Feb 2008

Posts: 141

PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a picture of the brigandine/coat of plates, taken from Armi e Atmature Lombarde.

As we can see, the reconstruction posted by Igor has ignored some of the evidence.

It is clear from the ragged fabric and old rivet holes on the left, that there used to be more plates on at least that edge.

I think, that, in spite of what appears to be a "negative crest line" down the center, this armor is best interpreted as a back opening defense. Adding the missing plates along the opening line would serve to make the back broader than the breast (as it must be), and make the neck opening less "pinched". So much the more so if we assume that there are plates missing from the right edge as well.

The overlap direction of the plates also supports the idea of a back opening.

Also, if we assume back opening, the additional armored length is now serving to cover the lower abdomen; and thatís all to the good as well.

I wish I could explain the negative crest line in what would then be the front.

Doug, have you looked at this piece in person? Does the crest really go that way, or could this be a photographic artifact?

Mac



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Igor Zeler




Location: UK
Joined: 08 Dec 2006

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue 22 Apr, 2008 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This coat-of-plates was dated c. 1390-1400.
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Doug Strong




Location: Chicago, IL (Suburbs)
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr, 2008 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert MacPherson wrote:

Doug, have you looked at this piece in person? Does the crest really go that way, or could this be a photographic artifact?


It is possible that is is a photographic artifact. I have not handled it myself. The photos in Boccia certainly look like a ridge.

Perhaps we should arrange a time when we can go see it together.

Now that I look at the layout more closely I agree, it is probably back opening.

Dr. Douglas W. Strong
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/
http://armourresearchsociety.org
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sat 20 Nov, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: RE: Coat-of-plates probably italian         Reply with quote

Is there any more information available about this brigandine/coat of plates? http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...w=previous

Did Doug Strong & Robert MacPherson make the pilgrimage to the the Met? If so what dark secrets did they learn?

I would love to know more about this piece.

Mackenzie
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 20 Nov, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Steven,

The point at the bottom there would indicate the front to me but I have never seen this in person. Having that at the back would seem.... uncomfortable.

Doug,

RPM


I started fighting in the SCA in a loaner armor with a similar design to this one...except with 4 buckles on the back instead of 3. Impossible to put on by yourself, but it is a pretty comfortable design.
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Jared Lambert




Location: Chandler, AZ
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
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Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sun 21 Nov, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The above caot of plates posted by robert look similar to the square lower plates in this coat of plates found in Burg Hirschstein Passau castle 1350 even though the plates are rather degraded.


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Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Nov, 2010 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Armi e Armature Lombarde, Lionello G. Boccia, Francesco Rossi and Marco Morin. p. 50
here the page.



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Ciao
Maurizio
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Jamie Szudy




Location: Malaga Spain & Madison, Wisconsin
Joined: 23 Mar 2011

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 25 Mar, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Lambert wrote:
The above caot of plates posted by robert look similar to the square lower plates in this coat of plates found in Burg Hirschstein Passau castle 1350 even though the plates are rather degraded.


That's an intriguing COP, Jared - do you know where it is published? I did some searches and couldn't find any references.
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Neil Melville




Location: Scotland
Joined: 27 Oct 2009

Posts: 183

PostPosted: Fri 25 Mar, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jamie
that coat-of-plates from Hirschstein castle was illustrated in Hermann Historica's auction catalogue of 'Alte Waffen', no.52, May 2007, lot no. 3641, with detailed photos and description in German and English. It is also illustrated in an article 'Mail to Plate', part 2, in the GB magazine 'Classic Arms and Militaria', published November 2010.
Neil

N Melville
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Jamie Szudy




Location: Malaga Spain & Madison, Wisconsin
Joined: 23 Mar 2011

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 25 Mar, 2011 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a ton, Neil - just what I was looking for!
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Mar, 2011 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the Japanese version, a manchira which is said to be copied from a Portuguese type of garment. It is completely lined with small iron plates which are sewn between the layers of cloth.



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