Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat 12 Apr, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?         Reply with quote

This is a bit of a stretch, but I am wondering if anyone has pictures/drawings of a scabbard and/or chape that incorporates a cross? I have seen the cross in a circle on the scabbard of Arn, but that is the only example I have been able to find so far. I would also be interested in any examples from period art (between 1100 to 1400) ...

Chad posted a great thread on engraved crosses on pommels that got me thinking about this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10277

QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat 12 Apr, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe a photo of the Arn scabbard would help by way of example (from Filmswords.com):


 Attachment: 39.09 KB
arn-scabbard-suite-detail.jpg


QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message
B. Fulton





Joined: 28 Dec 2004

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 3:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just shot a crapload of swords etc all over 3 countries, but surviving scabbards can be kind of rare.

The Charlemagne (as far as I can translate, that's what it should be) sword in the Louvre I believe it was, has a surviving scabbard in excellent shape, but it's covered in fleur-de-lis. May have a cross on it, I don't remmeber, but down the length of the blade it's all fleur-de-lis.
View user's profile Send private message
William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 1,001

PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 3:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Custom maker John Lundemo's Sword of St. Catherine incorporated crosses on
both blade & scabbard.

Always thought this one of the most brilliant reproduction swords I've ever seen.


Cheers,

Bill



 Attachment: 31.38 KB
l_ac0924ab4fafb37d3570cd3d7047e62a.jpg


Roanoke Sword Guilde

roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Belair
Industry Professional




Joined: 08 Aug 2006

Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

you find them on blades often incorporated between the words of a quote or mixed in with other symbols. i have one picture of an effigi were there is a cross in the locket, and a few others that i think are crosses but the pic quality is not good enough to be posative.
View user's profile Send private message
Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?         Reply with quote

Jody A wrote:
I would also be interested in any examples from period art (between 1100 to 1400) ...


Since surviving scabbards seem to be so rare, you might want to look at other sources (Heraldry, coins, known symbols of orders, etc.) If you got specific about one nationality/religion/order and narrowed it down to two centuries..someone here would probably quickly zero in on just one or two obvious choices.

For your stated time period, the Cross - Crosslet (circled form shown on your original post) seems to be abundant. You will also find many similar such as the Cross Potent. The full Jerusalem Cross (four smaller crosses in quadrants), Cross Fitchy (sword pointed bottom on cross..in armorial devices in a lot of English-Irish Heraldry http://www.circlecity.co.uk/familyhistory/large_image.php) seem to fit 12th and 13th century better than 14th. You are basically looking at variations of Anglo-Saxon and Merovingian crosses being prevalent then. There seems to be a ton of variation among surviving objects (painted plates, etc.) for early Hospitallers, so I am not sure when you would assert the Maltese Cross (not truly the same, at least with consistency, as the Iron or Teutonic cross of earlier eras) as dominant for their order. I have read tatements by others that the German or Iron cross, as shown on matched sword and scabbard above, was popular for Teutonic knights.



 Attachment: 57.63 KB
bayerisches_museum.jpg


Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Mercier




Location: Durham, NC on my way to Iraq
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Of course I'm out of town and away from my books, but I have a copy of Knives and Scabbards I believe published by or for the Museum of London. It has a lot of wonderful pictures of excavations to include some highly ornate scabbards that would give you just what you're looking for. However, I don't get home until the 22nd.

Does anyone have a copy of that book to provide Jody what he's looking for?

Mike
View user's profile Send private message
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:

If you got specific about one nationality/religion/order and narrowed it down to two centuries..someone here would probably quickly zero in on just one or two obvious choices.


Jared - your information above has already been very helpful. I cast the net a little wide to start with to see what was out there and get some ideas. If I were to narrow it down, I would be particularly interested in the mid 12th century to mid 13th century, English or French. Does this help?

For an added challenge, what have you, or others, seen by way of the Christian cross, straight lines, where the horizontal is 1/3 down the vertical, no embelishments on the ends? I would also be interested in an embelished Christian cross, if such a thing existed in this period (perhaps on a chape?) I wouldn't be so much interested in a religious order as a cross that might have been added to a Crusader's scabbard in this period ... Happy

QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the main reasons I posted this was to get ideas for a scabbard I had commissioned from Christian Fletcher. I thought some of you might be interested in the finished product. But please, if you come across other examples, I'd love to see them too.


 Attachment: 45.48 KB
Jody's scabbard 7.jpg


 Attachment: 62.74 KB
Jody's scabbard 8.jpg


QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message
Brian K.
Industry Professional



Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Joined: 01 Jan 2008

Posts: 721

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here was something done for a commission that requested a pattee type cross.

Also, here is a good link to refer to for variances in crosses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross

http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/CustomS...FC1024.jpg

Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul, 2008 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?         Reply with quote

[quote="Jody A"]
Jared Smith wrote:

For an added challenge, what have you, or others, seen by way of the Christian cross,


Uh...they are *all* Christian crosses, this being the "Age of Faith" and Christendom and all of that. Wink

Now if you mean the unadorned cross used as a default cross in many, modern Protestant denominations - they're more rare than equilateral crosses, but not unknown. I just can't think of any on swords. Heck, in the 10th - 13th centuries, even *crucifixes* are often equilateral straight lines, (which makes for an odd looking Corpus Christi!).

Btw, I think Christian did a lovely job with your sword.

Greg

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:

Uh...they are *all* Christian crosses, this being the "Age of Faith" and Christendom and all of that. Wink

Now if you mean the unadorned cross used as a default cross in many, modern Protestant denominations - they're more rare than equilateral crosses, but not unknown.


Thanks Greg - yes, 'Christian’ cross was a pretty sloppy reference, and definitely reflects my bias of looking at things through the 'crusader' lens. Blush You're right about the 'latin' cross being rare - I couldn't find a period example on a sword, or a scabbard, although of course surviving scabbards are rare to begin with. However, I did find some period representations in reliquaries, coins, and seals (on the Templar shield for example), and even in one of the relics of the True Cross. It made me think that, if it is expressed in these mediums, in this period, it is very possible that some Knight, somewhere, would have put one on his sword or his scabbard! I am ever-conscious of the tendency of generations before us who would hold a certain, limited view of the past until a ‘find’ broadened their view of the diversity and sophistication of what preceded them (did that make sense?!)

Here are some of the period examples (that I have images for) that inspired the design for my scabbard, particularly the crusader seal with the cavalry cross; and the seal with the cross, the fleur de lis, and the lion:



 Attachment: 148.91 KB
C - cross with lis and lion.jpg


 Attachment: 42.06 KB
C - 800px-True_Cross.jpg


 Attachment: 43.4 KB
C - crusader seal cavalry cross.jpg


 Attachment: 24.14 KB
Templarsign.jpg


 Attachment: 28.38 KB
c - 1413 cross.jpg


QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian K. wrote:
Here was something done for a commission that requested a pattee type cross.

Also, here is a good link to refer to for variances in crosses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross

http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/CustomS...FC1024.jpg


Thanks Brian. That example of a pattee type cross on that scabbard is really dramatic. Also, as a follow-up to the discussion between Greg and I above, it is interesting to note that the web site link you attached calls the cross on my scabbard both a 'latin' cross and a 'christian' cross, although I do think Greg is correct. Wink Jody.

QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?         Reply with quote

Jody A wrote:
particularly the crusader seal with the cavalry cross


I suppose you meant the calvary cross? It would be fun, though, to speculate about what a "cavalry" cross would look like.... Wink
View user's profile Send private message
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon 11 Aug, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

I suppose you meant the calvary cross? It would be fun, though, to speculate about what a "cavalry" cross would look like.... Wink


Thanks Lafayette - correct. Eek! I could say the spellchecker made me do it, but I didn't use it this time (maybe I should have Wink ). Just a case of the fingers doing one thing while the mind is thinking another. Ironically I really liked this period example of the calvary cross for both its proportions and how simply it was expressed.

QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message
Jody A




Location: Vancouver, BC
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 65 books

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been meaning to post this period illustration for a while (from a 13th century chronicle) of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick Barbarossa. It shows the latin cross, three times. Once on his tunic/cape, once on his shield, and once on the reliquary in his hand. He lived from 1122-1190. Now if only he were wearing his scabbard ... Wink


 Attachment: 37.14 KB
Barbarossa 2.jpg


QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > The Cross on reproduction or period art scabbards?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum