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Richard Hare




Location: Alberta, canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2008

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject: Rapier questions.         Reply with quote

Hello Chaps,

I have a rapier and wonder if anyone could help me ID it?

It is a swept hilt, and I Think it's a Victorian copy.
The reason I think this, is the blade appears un-finished, and hasn't much temper.

Having said that, this is full rapier length, and many Victorian copies were somewhat shorter.
Here are the stats on it;

O/All length;............. ..........50"...........................................................127cm
blade length,......................41 1/4".....................................................105cm
blade width @ hilt................1 1/16".....................................................27mm
blade thickness @ hilt,...........................................................................5mm

weight,.................................2 lbs 10 oz..............................................1,2kg

POB,(from guard)..............2 3/4".........................................................70mm.

So, can anyone tell me for sure what I have here,?

Thank you for looking, and all the best!

Richard.



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Richard Hare




Location: Alberta, canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2008

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just me again fellows.

I was looking at this sword again yesterday and wanted to add that the blade, though a bit soft, has about 8" of deflection at the tip, and comes back to true.
Can anyone tell me if copper brazing as a means of attaching the lighter bars to the hilt, was used in the 16th and 17th century?

Would like to find out what this is,, as I'd like to move it on, and don't want to falsely advertise it when moved over to "sales".

Thank you again for your time,

Richard.
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Vaclav Homan




Location: Hradec, Czech
Joined: 22 Jan 2008

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In 19 century was most popular medieval arms and armour to make falsification. Using Cu and tin as anticorrosive agent is common for this age (16-17) but there is not tipical and not excepted.
It is difficult charge that this is falsum but the wood on hilt is to fair (original to much beak down)
Differ original and old falsum is difficult we can use mistakes, but the best falsifier in 19 century was good as old masters.
May be using sixt sense for this canundrum.

There is only one art of fence yet many ways to reach it
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2008 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Richard,

It's a hard call and I may well be wrong, but I too think it's probably a copy. It is a very nice piece regardless.

There are three things that make me think it's a copy. The patina of age is not like any originals I've handled. The fuller is ground in, not beaten and is poorly finished. Most importantly the grip doesn't taper down to meet the guard. That is, there is a step down from the grip to the guard that would be quite unpleasant when holding the rapier (you can see this best in pic 5). I'd be prepared to put money on the grip at least being non-period. Given that the patina on the turks head knot appears similar to the rest of the sword, that would suggest that they are contemporary and hence that the whole thing is non genuine.

Regardless, it is a very nicely made piece. Unless you paid the going rate for an original, I'd be well pleased. Note that I have enough doubt that I think you should take it to an antique sword dealer and get it appraised.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard Hare wrote:
Can anyone tell me if copper brazing as a means of attaching the lighter bars to the hilt, was used in the 16th and 17th century?


I've seen a medieval mace with copper-brazef flanges, so the technique was at least known. I can't help you with your sword, though.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Richard Hare




Location: Alberta, canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2008

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vaclav,

Stephen,

Chad,

I thank you all so much, for taking the time to reply.

It appears we are all of one mind, that it is most likely a Victorian reproduction., but I'm pleased you like it anyway!

Stephen,

No, I didn't pay the going price for an original, so no worries that way!
Thanks for going through the points why you think it is a copy. Very nice of you to go to the trouble.
I hadn't noticed the "step down" to the guard, until you mentioned it.
I just had another look at it, and on one side the grip stands proud of the guard about 3/32" ...or maybe 2mm, wheras on the opposite side the wood is flush.
The camera isn't home at the moment, but I'll take a pic. for you when it comes back.

Vaclav and Chad,

Thank you both for the information on copper 'brazing' it is very nice to have people share their knowlege so freely. thanks again!

Best wishes,

Richard.
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