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Adam Bodorics
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Joined: 15 Apr 2005

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject: Grotesque warhammer - advice needed         Reply with quote

Ave.
I started my first bigger wax carving project, and being such a megalomaniac idiot, I chose a hammer head, the type which looks like a hand grasping a dagger, sizing it up for a two handed hammer (bit like a poleax, but totally different Laughing Out Loud ). Unfortunatuly, our dog got into the kitchen, and bumped into me, making me drop the piece. But after putting it together again, I saw a possibility there... so I started to alter it to a bit grotesque look, triing to give it a bit of mumificated feel. (totally ahistorical, as far as I know, but considering the danse macabre in other areas of art......... and more importantly, it'll be mine Big Grin )
...
I can only cast bronze and copper, but I didn't want my hammer to have a bronze blade, so I'll carve the hilt and put a steel blade in there.
...
The advice I'd need: what kind of dagger should I use? I have my ideas, but there are way too much of them, and I can't afford to make 9999999 hammers.... Laughing Out Loud
Thanks in advance!
(I attached progress pics, I only have about 4 hours in it by now, so it's far from complete.)
Opinions are welcome...



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Risto Rautiainen




Location: Kontiolahti, Finland
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Umm, have you calculated how much that's gonna weigh? As in dipping the wax mace head into water to see the volume of the piece and calculating the weight from there. Because it looks like it's gonna weigh a lot. Okay, it's gonna be for a twohanded hammer, but still that looks like a lot.
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Dan P




Location: Massachusetts, USA
Joined: 28 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 6:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seems to me like a dagger blade would be both too long and too flimsy to really be good as a spike for a 2-hand hammer. Think about, basically, how bad it might be for an actual dagger blade if you braced the tip on a piece of metal plate and then tried to whack it in with a sledgehammer. In my opinion it would be better with a short, pyramid-shaped spike- short enough to not get caught on stuff, but pointed enough to focus the force of the strike.
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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahh, I should have been more clear, sorry.
...
In this case, "dagger" means something that looks like a dagger (hilt, blade profile), but has greatly increased thickness (starting from at least 12mm, tapering to maximum 5mm before tip), hollow grind and reinforced tip. Other thing is, it can be exaggerated in some means, just as the heraldical arrows and the like.
About weight: If it would be casted right now, it would be truly very overweight, but a lot of wax will be removed from there, before I even start the "dagger" part of it. And I'm lucky enough not to worry about weight as far as it's under 8kg total - I used to practice singlehanded sword cuts with a 4kg steel rod, and longsword guards, cuts and thrusts with a 10 kg rod, both being unbalanced and way too long (1200mm for "singlehander", 1500mm for "longsword"). After those monsters a 15kg sledgehammer felt like a feather (probably the heaviest feather in the world, that is) when gripped wide. Big Grin
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would put a rondel dagger.
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay, this will be a bit "out there", but, since you're going a-historical to begin with, what about an ear dagger?

Here's the thought - while the typical fist-style hammer (that I've seen, at least - not claiming to be an expert) has only the spike, rather than a spike on one side and a "hammer head" of some description on the other, an ear dagger styled instrument in the grip of the fist would place the reinforced "blade" on one side of the fist, while the "ears" would protrude from the other side, providing a rather nasty, slotted "hammer head" type of device - think of the common four-prong type hammer head, only joining two prongs on either side, with a more rounded profile, to create a head with two blade-looking devices.

Maybe a little too a-historical, and, potentially, a real female canine to make, but I think it would look completely bad-@$$!
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Jos Smeets




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 03 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen a couple of hammers like that. Most are holding a big nail/spike though some have daggers though always diamond bladed daggers that are so far they are almost square, much like many ballock daggers.
So far I've never fought anyone with one of those, but I've gone through some training routines with one and they are indeed top heavy, but that's to be expected of any kind of hammer. Guess it's a matter of preference, I wouldn't use it but then I'm build very lightly any normally build person that trains a bit shouldn't have to much problems using it. Of course this is all provided you cast it in the right metal, do be aware that cast metal is inherently soft.
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Robin Palmer




Location: herne bay Kent UK
Joined: 21 Dec 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi adam

reference your blade I have found eight illustrations of the type of weapon you propose all four show a short 4-5 inch double edged blade with a thick central ridge. a couple almost square section. Might I suggest you try to get your local libary to get a copy of. Medieval costume armour and weapons ISBN no 0-486-41240-7 printed by dover press US price $34.95. I have found it an invaluable source of illustrations all from primary source all copyright free. hope this will be of use to you
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Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you going to cast that hollow? It 's not any more difficult than casting it solid, and would save on weight/material/money as well. I don't think there would be much of a reduction in strength either...

As for the historical types of hammers that I've seen (pictures of) in that style, most of the "dagger" blades look like a thick triangular or diamond cross-section. For reference, here is the one that Lutel makes:



It also seems to be made of brass, so using bronze probably wouldn't be too far off the mark.

Good luck Happy

www.addisondelisle.com
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Norman McCormick





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have a look at the blade on an Indo Persian Zaghnal/Zagnal war hammer.
Regards,
Norman.
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Chris Arrington





Joined: 06 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Somtimes my mind wanders down paths it should not.

A non-historical (to my knowledge) but interesting addtion to your hammer would be the addition of a top thrusting spike. How could it be done, and staying true to style? Simple. The hand would also be "flipping the bird", and that finger could be stylized to a sharp point.

Now, it would not be something you would want to show to your grandmothers knitting circle, or to show off at the neighborhood association meeting. But given the grotesque nature of other items from this style/period, it would only be slightly ahistorical.

Laughing Out Loud Sorry, I couldn't resist Wink
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Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Somtimes my mind wanders down paths it should not.

A non-historical (to my knowledge) but interesting addtion to your hammer would be the addition of a top thrusting spike. How could it be done, and staying true to style? Simple. The hand would also be "flipping the bird", and that finger could be stylized to a sharp point.


What a twisted mind you have... Laughing Out Loud

Adam, since this is going to be some kind of mummy hand, why not doing some kind of sharpened femur for the dagger ? Wink

You could also do some kind of Egyptian bronze dagger (to stay in the "mummy" vein)...



A rondel dagger would be the evident and practical choice but this as been done before...

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Adam Bodorics
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Joined: 15 Apr 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hate when so much ideas arise... Happy
I thought about the ear dagger, but even from the hardest bronze I have acces to, it would be too soft, and I'm crazy enough to use them. But I'll remember this one, and make one when I'll have acces to steel casting. Big Grin
About the book Robin recommended: I'm in Hungary, meaning that libraries most usually doesn't even know about books I'd need...
Chris: fun thing, my grandmother thought about the same thing about a top spike, but I already finished the thumb, which I don't really want to remove now... Ahh, I think I'll have to make another one very soon, as I like the idea very much... Wink
...
By now, it has a deep hole chiselled into it, so I'd consider it hollow... If I calculated correctly, it removed about 0.5-0.7 kg.
...
Thanks for the ideas, I'll consider them...
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Stephan Hall




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 4:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How do you fasten the blade to the fist? do you mould it on the blade (forget the hardening to hot) or attaching it afterwards ( how)
If you think about attaching a normal daggerblade be aware that those are to hard and brittle they may brake ( or do you want to make a wallhanger).
Daggerblades are made to hold in hand and not to be mounted on a Hammer. So it should be very thick, maybe a square form about 10 to 12 centimetres long. have you condidered making it yourself ? take a piece of carbon steel, maybe about 200x20x20 and file or ground it to the right shape and get it hardened.
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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I by a rule never made, and never will make a wallhanger (if you mean nonfunctional weapons by this), nor will integrate into my stuff anything made by others (except when they make it specially for me, by my specs)... Big Grin
I mentioned earlier that I plan to make the "dagger" blade thick, right because the reasons you mention. After grinding it, I plan to have it heat treated to a not-so-hard temper, to avoid brittleness.
For mounting it, I'll first add the hilt carvings to the "hand", heat up the tang a bit, and push it through gently the wax. This will result in a mold that loosely fits the dagger, but after casting, it shrinks a bit, making it impossible to simply place the tang in place. I'll heat up the bronze, so it expands, slide the tang through the hole, and let it cool. Most likely, this'll soften the tang a bit, which is, IMO, not a problem, rather an advantage, for it'll absorb shock a bit better. After it cooled down, I'll heat up the tang's end (which passes through the pommel), and peen it. Only thing I'm not totally sure about this is the mass of the fist - I could mount pommels and quillons before like this with ease, but those were much lighter and thinner.
If I fail to heat it up enough, I'll simply place the blade's point on a stump, grind a bit on the tang (to make for less difference in tang size and hole size), and hammer the fist onto the dagger. This would likely chew up the pommel, and probably damage the point, which may need reworking after this, so I hope I'll be able to heat it up enough.
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Stephan Hall




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam I see you know what youre doing. As earlier mentioned in the tread it would be interesting if the opposite side of the blade would be like a ear dagger wich would ad a kind of warhammer to the other site. Im impressed of your work and hoping to see more things you have made and will make
yours stephen
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Daniel Murray




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 27 Feb 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: 2 handed hammer         Reply with quote

try using something the size and shape of a railroad spike. the end can easily be sharpened and it would make for a very effective piece of armament.

DWM
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Stephan Hall




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 12:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I cannot speak for hungary but in the rest of good old europe railroadspike are scarce. I heard that in the usa and australia they can be found near every old railroadtrack and the the ones marked with HC are High Carbon Steel. I would appreciate having such a source of raw material in germany but i havent held a railroadspike in my hand neither seeing one lying around . Its a nice idea anyway.
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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sadly, here we must be very happy if we can even find a place to buy spring steel... plates of quality steel are also hard to get, except mild... I've been hunting for 20mm thick spring steel without ordering it from other countries, so far I'm told that either they don't have any, or they have, they'll be happy to sell, but they won't sell any under 500kg. Given that here spring steel costs 350 Huf (bit more than 2$) for a kilogramm, this'd be more than 1000$, which, being a hobby armourer now, I can't afford.
...
I think I'll post progress pics today, when I'll have my camera. I removed the middle finger, and remade it so it'll have a top spike as Chris thought. Sadly it didn't turn out as good as I thought, but I'll work more on it. I found that it would be too thin to survive thrust for long (especially when I thrust with full power, adding body weight into it - I'm about 130kg with armour on), so I'll attach there another blade, the end looking like an elongated fingernail, the "tang" passing down to the metacarpal area, to stabilize it a bit. My girlfriend carved a nice looking pommel, but after a bit thinking, I removed it, and placed in the "will someday make something from it" box, as I like more and more the ear dagger idea... I think I'll make a crescent cutout in the "ears", so it'll be four pronged, and reinforce it with small steel spikes placed deep inside. This'll be hard to make, and possibly even less authentic, but at least it will survive use.
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Adam Bodorics
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Joined: 15 Apr 2005

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PostPosted: Fri 29 Feb, 2008 3:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The progress so far...
I'll have to work a bit more on the middle finger, but it keeps breaking apart. Fortunatuly, it's easily reassembled, but it's still a nuisance.
The pictures are a bit blurry, sorry for that.



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Middle finger closeup

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The visible part of the "grip" roughed out [ Download ]
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