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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Prussian/German cavalry sword identification         Reply with quote

I have a new sword, I would like exact identification if possible of the period and which state of the Germanies it is. Here is some pics. Please let me know.


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prussian sabre 1.jpg


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prussian sabre 2.jpg


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prussian sabre 3.jpg

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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe it is an Austrian Model 1861 Infantry Officer's Sword. Here is a similar example: M1861.

Jonathan
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William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes Jonathan is correct.....M1861 Austrian infantry sabre. These a nice little sabre's.


My 1861 3rd down.....


Auf Wiedersehen,



Bill



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vintagecollection3.jpg


Roanoke Sword Guilde

roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah ha,
I thought it looked similar to the WW1 Austrian k.u.k. infantry saber. The ray-skin tipped it toward the 19th century. Tell me, is it a dress sword or field sword?
Thanks.
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as I know it intended for the field. I am pretty much fixated o British swords, but this model is one I would like to add to my collection someday! Happy

Jonathan
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William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Right again Jonathan...

these were field issue swords.....

Mine still has the original field edge....not the sharpest, but will still take out a milk jug quite easy.

Roanoke Sword Guilde

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"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Both of you have been very helpful. I posted a new topic about an early 19th cen. American artillery officers sword. Sadly no pic for it. Maybe you can both view it and offer up some wisdom.
thanks.
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Sat 23 Feb, 2008 4:26 am    Post subject: Prussian/ German Cavalry Sword Identification         Reply with quote

I have one question:
When was the last time the Austrian M1861 Infantry Sabre used?



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Austrian M1861 Infantry Officer's Sabre.jpg

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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Sat 23 Feb, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They used them in WW1, the scabbards and hilts had a black finish on them and the grips were bakelite i think.
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Peter Busch




Location: Sydney
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun 24 Feb, 2008 12:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan Butler wrote:
They used them in WW1, the scabbards and hilts had a black finish on them and the grips were bakelite i think.


They still use them today:

http://www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/ausinfantry.html

This pattern and the 1904 (Cavalry):

http://www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/auscavalry.html

http://www.swordforum.com/fall99/1865.html
http://www.oakeshott.org/1831art.html
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Feb, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Prussian/ German Cavalry Sword Identification         Reply with quote

The W.K.C. Solingen versions of this sword differ from the original ones (their looks, I mean) and I understand that these swords are still used by the Austrian Armed Forces during parades.
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, they may use them in parades, but the last time they were used on the field of battle was WW1. Heres some pics of an extra -special engraved 1861 model. Bee-u-tee-full!


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engraved 1861.jpg


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enraved 1861 2.jpg


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engraved 1861 3.jpg


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engraved 1861 4.jpg

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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Busch wrote:
Morgan Butler wrote:
They used them in WW1, the scabbards and hilts had a black finish on them and the grips were bakelite i think.


They still use them today:

http://www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/ausinfantry.html

This pattern and the 1904 (Cavalry):

http://www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/auscavalry.html

The blade specifications they show seem different from from the original "field" weapons. The modern version has a longer and more slender blade.
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Peter Busch




Location: Sydney
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Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quoate] The blade specifications they show seem different from from the original "field" weapons. The modern version has a longer and more slender blade.[/quote]

Quite true, .. like a lot of modern military swords, they have become lighter and more of a 'dress' weapon. That is why WK&C today also does a lot (not all) of their blades in stainless ... simply easier for the officer today to keep his sword shiney (a sword he/she is never going to use in combat).

At the same time, in the German (and more than likely Austrian) military system, there were always two swords for officers, their dress weapon and their combat weapon (sometimes an issued weapon). The British system as you know, was one sword, with two scabbards (one dress, the other Sam Brown or combat).

All that's happening here is that WK&C realises the market is for 'dress' weapons (in the military today) and that is why they are catering for that .... in fact they kind of state as much on their webpage:

http://www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/care.html

* Ceremonial Use and Safety:

- WKC swords and sabers are intended for ceremonial use only.

- Blade tips are relatively sharp; exercise care during use.

- The blades are not designed for impact and "fighting." While forged, tempered, and designed for flexibility and durability, ceremonial blades lack the toughness to withstand the heavy impact of "blade-to-blade" contact.

- Do not use ceremonial swords for re-enactment fighting.

- Horseplay may result in damage to the sword or, worse yet, personal injury.

- Sword and saber manual of arms is a developed and practiced skill. Do not be flamboyant when handling a drawn sword.

- Children tend to have a natural fascination with swords and often mistake a ceremonial sword for a weapon. Supervise children closely and know that the misuse of a sword is dangerous.

http://www.swordforum.com/fall99/1865.html
http://www.oakeshott.org/1831art.html
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Busch wrote:
The British system as you know, was one sword, with two scabbards (one dress, the other Sam Brown or combat).


Dress swords were not regulation for infantry officers, but they did exist in an unofficial capacity. Please see the thread on Dress swords and Fighting Swords.

Morgan,
Thank you for posting that beautiful "extra-special" M1861!

Jonathan
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I wish I owned that baby! Its the only model 1861 with an engraved hilt that I've come across. To tell you the truth mine is coming to me in the mail, so I havent even hefted it yet. Whats the weight minus scabbard. Any reviews from owners?
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Prussian/ German Cavalry Sword Identification         Reply with quote

Nice engravings on your sword's hilt, Morgan. I've never seen it before.
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unfortunately that ones not mine. My pics are at the very top of the topic. It'll look nicer once I take the rust off.
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 9:22 am    Post subject: Prussian/ German Cavalry Sword Identification         Reply with quote

That looks like a shotgun shell supporting the sword's guard.
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had to look at the picture for a while to get what you were talking about. I thought you meant the ferrule above the grip at first. But yes, he is using a shot gun shell to prop up the hilt. I seem to never tire of those pictures. I wish that was the one I was getting. I' m curious to hear from any owners how the model 1861 handles. Mine is still in the mail. I'm thinking about getting a sabre-knot to spiff it up.
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