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Stefan Toivonen




Location: Åbo, Finland
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 4:27 am    Post subject: Polearm, Identification needed         Reply with quote

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?pos=-1995

I've recently become very fascinated by polearm sand while going trough the picture database I stumbled upon this.
What kind of polearm is this, some kind of pike? Not that I even know how a pike blade really looks. For a person with a very small amount of books the picture database is a real treasure. More information would be greatly appreciated.
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Gary Venable




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PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 6:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would say a pike is a good guess. It's impossible to tell for sure from that photo because you can't see how long the pole is. But the head is typical for an awl pike seen mostly in Germany and northern Italy. You can also check out this link for a nice overview. [url]http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9939/arms.htm [/url]
Gary
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 7:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd agree that this is an ahlspiess, but I'm not sure what implications that has for the staff length. Although we can't see the length of the staff, I think the disk below the spike is intended to protect the hand, and the hand wouldn't be that far up the staff of, say, a 16' pike. I suppose such a defense might also prevent opposing polearms from sliding down the staff, however.If I remember correctly, these and similar polearms are well-illustrated in Froissart's Chronicles. I'll see if I can find an example from period artwork. EDIT: Scratch that about Froissart. Short polearms (partisans) with similar hand defenses are everywhere in those illustrations, but no ahlspiessen. Here's a period illustration of the weapon type I think is under consideration (although the spike of this one is longer than the one originally posted):
http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=59987
This doesn't resolve the question of staff length, because a shorter head might have been fitted to a longer staff, and a longer head might have been fitted to a shorter staff. Hmm....Maybe Nathan has some stats for this critter.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the description for that piece. If somebody can translate, I'll add the info to the database:

Quote:
Ahlspieß
Wien, im Stil des ausgehenden 15.Jhdts. Eiserne, lange, vierkantige Stoßklinge mit tief eingeschlagener Marke in der Art der Wiener Zeughausmarke (Wappenschild mit Kreuz). Aufgesetzte, kreisrunde, eiserne Brechscheibe. Vierkantige, konisch erweiterte Tülle. Vierkantiger, in rund übergehender Holzschaft. Länge 245 cm.


Here's the silly translation from Babel Fish:

Quote:
Ahlspiess Vienna, in the style of the outgoing 15.Jhdts. iron one, is enough, four-sharp-edged impact blade also for deeply hit mark in the kind of the Viennese arsenal mark (coat of arms sign with cross). Put one on, circular, iron brechscheibe. Four-sharp-edged, conical extended sleeve. Four-more sharp-edged, in round turning into wood shank. Length 245 cm.

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah! So it is just a bit over eight feet long (but is it the original shaft?). Thanks, Nathan!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Stefan Toivonen




Location: Åbo, Finland
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 1:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks everyone, this clears up the mystery alot. Should have studied german more diligently in school, don't remember much of it anymore Happy
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Stefan Toivonen




Location: Åbo, Finland
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Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2003 3:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Btw, Sean, where is that picture from? While we are at it, are there any books that deals specifically with polearms?
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2003 6:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found the image thanks to a Yahoo search for "ahlspiess". The URL is related to Sword Forum International, but that's as much as I know of its provenance. If you go to swordforum.com, sign in and use the search function to search for "ahlspiess" I think you'll find lots of information and possibly the provenance of this image.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2003 10:25 pm    Post subject: Caption         Reply with quote

My apologies for the tardy response, but I just found this thread. I am not a German scholar, but I think I have a fair idea of what the Ahlspiess caption is.

Ahlspieß
Wien, im Stil des ausgehenden 15.Jhdts. Eiserne, lange, vierkantige Stoßklinge mit tief eingeschlagener Marke in der Art der Wiener Zeughausmarke (Wappenschild mit Kreuz). Aufgesetzte, kreisrunde, eiserne Brechscheibe. Vierkantige, konisch erweiterte Tülle. Vierkantiger, in rund übergehender Holzschaft. Länge 245 cm

Ahlspiess Vienna, in the style of the outgoing 15.Jhdts. iron one, is enough, four-sharp-edged impact blade also for deeply hit mark in the kind of the Viennese arsenal mark (coat of arms sign with cross). Put one on, circular, iron brechscheibe. Four-sharp-edged, conical extended sleeve. Four-more sharp-edged, in round turning into wood shank. Length 245 cm.

Looking at the weapon, goes pretty much like this:

Ahlspiess from Vienna, in the late 15th century style. The blade/head is iron, quadrangular, and bears a deep mark of the type used by the Arsenal of Vienna (a coat-of-arms shield with a cross). There is a circular iron rondel. The socket is quadrangular, conical/pyramidal, and long. The wooden shaft is four sided also, and gradually changes into a round shape/cross-section. Length 245 cm.

I hope this is useful.

Felix Wang
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