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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: leather gambeson         Reply with quote

Hello I used to have a quilted leather gambeson but the person that made it no longer makes them i was wondering if any one has any suggestions as where to get one
i want one from between 800-1000ad any help would be much apreciated

Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Sean Smith





Joined: 31 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Uh, I dont know of any historical documentation for "leather gambesons" in the period you are talking about. Can you ost a picture of what you are looking for? There is a "curie" out of leather, but that isn't until around 1190.
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

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PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yes of the style of leather tunic worn like a gambeson between 900-1066 some times padded potentialy idont need a padde one but similiar to
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/28404...mp;s=books
the one worn by the guy on the left with the green shield

Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Sean Smith





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PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am fairly certain that those were not made out of leather (aka. there is no documentation to suggest that they were in leather). That type of gambeson in general would have been a far later invention. There isn't anything to suggest that the warriors at Hastings wore any kind of gambeson.. The photo, while taken at Hastings LH event, has several historical in-accuracies.
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Based on scenes depicted in the decorative panels of the Sutton Hoo Helmet, the Viking Age Gambeson is a handsome example of an early Medieval form of armor. Artifacts from both the Sutton Hoo and Vendel finds clearly illustrate warriors wearing armor of this style into combat. The overlapping front affords some extra protection of vital organs and like gambesons of later periods, these were likely made from a number of different materials. Styling also probably varied somewhat and warriors of differing ranks and financial means would likely be found wearing them over tunics or maille.
you cannot just wear mail to battle you must have some form of gambeson evedence points to there being sch in the viking age and even later medieval ones may be of leather there is nothing proving it is in accurate
p.s. i know there were many in-accuracies at said event but there are at any event

Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Near the year 1000, in and around the European continent, metal and
iron were difficult to come by and reserved for the wealthy and
affluent. The common foot soldier could not afford these luxuries.
"Forms of 'soft armour' were certainly in general use by the
mid-twelfth century; defences of thickly padded, quilted cloth were a
cheap, practical and comfortable alternative to those made of metal."
"Infantry, as laid down in the Assize of Arms of 1182, often
wore one of two types of gambeson. One type was a sleevless garment
with a stiff collar and stiffened arm openings; the other was a plain
quilted garment reaching to the knee, with full-length sleeves."
Requiring some kind of body protection; our soldier was relegated to
making his armour from materials that were simple to make or obtain and
were inexpensive but offered coverage and protection. "Period choices
of materials were usually two or more layers of linen stuffed with tow,
rags or other material."

There are examples of padded gambesons in the Bayeux Tapestry. (4)
"Odon, Bishop of Bayeux (William's brother) and William the Conqueror
both wear a hauberk composed of large, differently-coloured triangles,
a quilted gambeson." A battle scene from The Maciejowsky Bible
shows infantry wearing padded gambesons.

Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

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PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

mac bible show men from 1250. what happens 200 years later can not be back dated to a different time and peoples. you can not put 100% in the B.T. its a comic strip Wink in one seen what looks like a gambeson in another looks like scale or a gambeson. there is no 100% proof of its existence. and i have fought in mail with no gambeson. just wore a wool tunic. no problems.

the sutton hoo panels also show men with horned helmets in battle which has 1: never been found and 2: would be stupid to do Wink (yank ahhhh! ehhehe)

and the one picture posted is not of leather, it is of cloth. i have the book also and have seen pictures online somewheres of the gentleman that owns the gambeson. just because a reenactor has it and it "passed" muster, doesn't mean its 100% historically accurate.
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Sean Smith





Joined: 31 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Chuck said, I agree that gambesons are in use by 1187, and the Assise of Arms. In fact, that is the first record to date that lists any form of padded armour, either under maille or by itself. And if you read it carefully, it mentions nothing about leather gambesons. As for your comment about wearing something under maille, I know several people who simply wear two or three thick wool tunics, and are fine. Again, there is absolutely NO concrete irrefutable evidence that shows gambesons earlier than 1187, and they were made of fabric not leather.

If you are looking for a fantasy piece, that is fine. Just do not try and justify it through backwards interpretations of other effigies, and then "find" what you were looking for.
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maille merely blunts the sharpness of a weapon that is its purpose if one wears maille to battle with only a tunic on then it would be the same as being whacked by a blunt sword, if someone attacks you with a club or mace you die equal to wearing nothing, putting on a gambeson cushions the blow so historically maille was worn with a gambeson always. the question is was in the viking era was it leather or cloth more evidence more evedence points to a leather tunic being worn but they probably had both. the sutton ho panels show horned helmets but those are supposed o be gods the non-gods are accurate and they have leather tunics. i dont know if the person that i used as an example i dont know what their gambesons made out of i used it as an example as what mine looked like, mine wasnt as padded. you cant use what other people now do as an example as you dont know of their accuracy. and maille was not that common inthe viking era so what did other people use as protection. and you cant say the bayeux tapestry is inaccurate if something made near the event in the era is inn acurate then nothing is and you shouldnt re innacte or claim to like history!
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Firstly mail was not "worn with a gambeson always". As has already been said a thick woollen tunic is sufficient for most purposes. Secondlly the use of the word "gambeson" to describe the garment that was worn under mail is not the best term to use. "Aketons" or "pourpoint" are better terms. The term gambeson seems to have been used more often to describe standalone armour - not a supplement for mail. Thirdly there is absolutely no evidence for leather being worn as an underarmour for mail during the time in question.
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chase-

One of the reasons you give for why a leather gambeson would be worn is cost. However, leather is not cheap in this period. Only steppe peoples in this era are doing the large scale ranching necessary for lots of cheap leather. Hasting is pretty far from there. There is simply no evidence of any kind of clothing - tuncis, pants, armour - being made from leather in this period. And a wool undertunic is much cheaper than a gambeson or aketon.

This makes sense also from the fact that leather armour isn't very good. I have more trouble cutting the cloth I use for gambesons with a knife than I do leather.

I study period combat and fence with blunted steel. I prefer felted wool padding to a gambeson as it works better. I have no trouble believing that warriors of that era used thick wool undertunics instead of gambesons. (That being said I believe the much more expensive gambeson is better armour versus arrows and edged weapons).

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chase S-R wrote:
Maille merely blunts the sharpness of a weapon that is its purpose if one wears maille to battle with only a tunic on then it would be the same as being whacked by a blunt sword, if someone attacks you with a club or mace you die equal to wearing nothing, putting on a gambeson cushions the blow so historically maille was worn with a gambeson always.


um and how can you prove this? just because you say so or makes since to you doesn't make it so.
Quote:
the question is was in the viking era was it leather or cloth more evidence more evedence points to a leather tunic being worn but they probably had both.


again, what evidence for what or both?

Quote:
the sutton ho panels show horned helmets but those are supposed o be gods the non-gods are accurate and they have leather tunics.


they do? funny i can't get that detail from them. i see a long kaftan which was known as period dress for the time frame. and a leather tunic? that one does not keep you warm and 2 does not breathe or move well.

Quote:
i dont know if the person that i used as an example i dont know what their gambesons made out of i used it as an example as what mine looked like, mine wasnt as padded. you cant use what other people now do as an example as you dont know of their accuracy. and maille was not that common inthe viking era so what did other people use as protection. and you cant say the bayeux tapestry is inaccurate if something made near the event in the era is inn acurate then nothing is and you shouldnt re innacte or claim to like history!


Sad i guess I don't like history very well then. guess I should trade in my college degree on underwater basket weaving Wink hehe. You have to step back and look at the full picture when looking at the BT. It was commissioned a few years after the battle was one by the victor's brother. So 1: it only tells 1 side of the story. 2: it shows bias towards one side. 3: was it made as propaganda 4: etc etc we could go on and on hehehe

I'm not trying to be mean please don't get me wrong. but as to your assumptions on a gambeson there just any 100% accuracy to what you are trying to say. I'm just trying to help.
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Keith Williams




Location: Orlando, FL
Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen zero evidence from any period that leather was used as any sort of undergarment to an armour-clad person.

Not to be harsh, but it sounds like you are trying to justify its use because you want to make/have/use one. If you want to make/have/use one, fine, do it, but dont justify it and call it historically accurate.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle
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Max Maydanik




Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Joined: 29 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am sorry, if my comment may come across as a rude one, but rereading the Chase's question I had an impression that he was asking where could he buy leather gamberson. Most of the replies for some reason, assumed that Chase was asking to validate the existence of the said garment. That is not to say that I ever heard about leather gambersons. I would imagine it would be rather uncomfortable in the heat of battle. Oops, I think I am falling into the same trap as the rest.
- What do you prefer: a reconstruction of historical fencing or a real swordfight?
- Historical reconstruction of course. In the real swordfight, they just look at each other, mumble something and then ..a deathblow.
And in a historical reconstruction you have to think, plan your strategy and count points.
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David McElrea




Location: Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the difficulty arose from this line:

"i want one from between 800-1000ad any help would be much apreciated"
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Sean Smith





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PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb, 2008 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Such is why my first question was trying to figure out exactly what he wanted. When he followed it with: "of the style of leather tunic worn like a gambeson between 900-1066 some times padded potentialy", and then posted a picture of something that wasn't made out of leather. I was really hoping for a manufacturer, so people would know what to suggest.

I personally don't know of ANY manufacturers of leather gambesons that I would refer people to.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is three(3) references to leather armour in the norse sagas. One is a translation of the Lays of Charlemagne, where "leather panzar" is mentioned. The second a man in Landnamasaga (the early settling of Iceland) where one of the characters is named "Leatherneck" because he made himself a panzar of leather.
The third is the famous "reideer coats" from the saga of St. Olav. However, these where not armour as such, but magical items bought from a Lappish shaman, and enchanted with runes. And, oh, this saga also has trolls in it...

As a conclusion, they where at best very rare. The only guy known to wear one, in a scandinavian setting, was actually named after his armour, indicating that it was rather special.
(Also note that this was on iceland at a very early stage, where other materials might not be available)

However, these leather gambesons have become quite popular among european viking/dark age reenactors, sice it does not look as medevial as the later, documented cloth armours...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello every one yes my ? wasnt weather they existed it was were to get one and no thanks to anyone but Raymond who p.m.ed me i found a place castlekeep were i could get one. i know they were not common even if they are on the tapestry there is only 1 and no i wouldnt were it to a reenactment i wanted to get one to test to see its protection vs other forms of "soft" armour jacks etc. i have seen rare refrence i believe they existed but as a rare item i wanted still to test its effectiveness. several of you said i dont mean to be rude well personally i feel insulted and dont know if i ever want to post again so this may be good bye to all but i have no freinds in the world and i joined myArmoury as a place were i could talk to other people of similiar intreset. i am 16 and know no-one like me i was paid at 12 to guest lecture a class on the bayeux tapestry and saw the original also at 12 i have travelled all over europe and am leaving on a journey to scandinavia in 2 weeks i consider myself knowledgable on this topic as my main intrest is the 11th century amour and arms. i believe they existed as a rare item but something iwould like to test for effectiveness another item possibilty is rings sewn on leather v. maille but i shouldnt say this as many of you may not have heard of this and thus will ? my intellectual capacity. i have found people who are pleasent to me at every reenactment and western martial art event ive ben to and hoped it would be simiiar here i want to declare my deep dissapointment with myArmoury something i thought ide never say. i also own the book hastings 1066 i bought it in bayeux when i was 11 and it has had to be rebound as its lost its cover and is very tattered to me that mans gambeson looks like leather and to that i hold so if i do leave myArmoury as i now plan, goodbye and may your swords stay sharp and your shields strong!
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chase, no dis intended, but is there any chance that you can grammar and punctuate it up a little bit? It make your posts very hard to read and leaves some interpreting to the reader.
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 12:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chase, buddy. don't over react... These guys are history-heads, so of course they are going to jump at the chance to debate history. Anybody who would really know is very dead, a long time ago.

I did notice a lack of tact, but nothing you wouldn't see in scholarly debate on any subject.

Wear your leather gambeson, and get used to the feel of it. It is my opinion that it may offer better protection than a cloth one (at the cost of more weight), but will also restrict movement somewhat. Try it out in a match... See what it can really do.

I'd say, that considering the writing ability of the majority of 16 year olds I have met recently, your posts aren't so bad.

Practise, mate. It's all about practise...

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

अजयखड्गधारी
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