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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 4:58 am    Post subject: Cinquedas in period Artwork ?         Reply with quote

I have plenty of Pictures of original Cinquedas but I cant ever remember seeing any of them in period illustrations or paintings.
Any pics of period paintings or drawings showing Cinqueda swords would be appreciated and if it happens to show the method of suspension then all the better.

Many Thanks !

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Hugh Fuller




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would second that request. Any assistance in this would, indeed, be much appreciated.
Hugh
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I've seen cinquedas among the swords illustrated here, but I'm not positive:

http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/

You'll have to wade through LOTS of images. Set your date range, choose "Materielle Objekte" and click on "Auswahlen". Then enter "Schwert" in the search box at the bottom of the page and click "Ziege Bilder".

You might also want to try "Messer".

You may not find exactly what you want, but you'll see a huge variety of weapons and suspension options.

Here are a couple of cinqueda scabbards showing the suspension method:



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-Sean

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Hugh Fuller




Location: Virginia
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Sean. Those pics of the scabbard answer questions that Russ and I have had over the suspension of a cinquedea ever since I bought mine from Tinker.
Hugh
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Indeed... yeah I saved those pictures Hugh. Happy
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some scabbards found in London show the same method of cutting slits in the leather--apparently sometimes cut by the owner rather than the scabbard maker, perhaps to give the customer his choice of carriage(?).

It's worth noting that many of the knives and daggers depicted in the paintings on the site referenced above seem to show this kind of suspension--just dangling on a thin strip of leather or cord looped over a thin belt. I've been collecting images (mostly from the site mentioned above) for my own hauswehr/bauernwehr project, and offer some below for you amusement. Big Grin Note that in some cases the belt seems to pass directly through slots in the knife scabbard, with no intervening suspension. I'm seeing the same suspension on swords of all sizes in these paintings (all German/Austrian, mostly 15th c. and early 16th c.) The contemporary artwork on that site is a goldmine for all kinds of medieval material culture, including scabbard construction, decoration and suspension.



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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks again Sean, I'm going to have to go through the site carefully!
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth--In "Arrest of Christ" paintings of this period, the Apostle Peter is most often shown drawing a messer or short, cinqueda/coustille-size sword from a hand-carried scabbard. There may be a clue there about how common folk (civilians) sometimes carried their weapons--perhaps simply tucked into a belt under a cloak.


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-Sean

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David Sutton




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, is that a one-sided chape on the end of that scabbard?

Never seen anything like that before.

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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Sean and everyone for your input. The pics are great ! I love the Cinqueda scabbard leather toolwork !
Its still a mystery to me why there is so little reference in period Paintings though especially considering the reasonable number of surviving original Cinqueda swords. I have heard that they were sometimes used on the left side of the belt as an accompanyment to the Rapier but I dont for sure...........anyone know about this ?

Cheers

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb, 2008 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Sutton wrote:
Sean, is that a one-sided chape on the end of that scabbard?

Never seen anything like that before.


Hmmm...yes, it does seem to be only on the front. Might be pinned or stitched on the sides. That would certainly be MUCH easier to make, so it's nice to see historical justification for this method.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Merv Cannon wrote:

Its still a mystery to me why there is so little reference in period Paintings though especially considering the reasonable number of surviving original Cinqueda swords. I have heard that they were sometimes used on the left side of the belt as an accompanyment to the Rapier but I dont for sure...........anyone know about this ?

Cheers


I'm positive I've seen contemporary depictions of these weapons, but it would be hard to say where. Your best bet would be to search Italian Renaissance painting.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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