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G.Alan Beck




Location: Seattle Washington
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: WMA & Personel Geneology         Reply with quote

Greetings & salutations.I'm sure that in some small part, most of us started studying & training WMA in order to connect with our Martial Ancestors.While trying to research my family geneology(very hard with no living relatives) I discovered a website(dnaancestoryproject.com)that allows the average Joe or Jane to scientifically & conclusively trace your genetic family all the way back to the African Adam,some 50-100,000 years ago.This is done through DNA Testing & Mapping.The basic test will give you more of an overview of your genetic family history(genetically &ethnically).The more advanced tests(which I chose) can actually tie your genetics to very specific geographical areas & ethnic populations.I hope to specialize my training in WMA to the exact geographical & ethnic origins of my genetically matched ancestors.I am wondering if anyone else out there supplements their WMA training with a personal search of their exact ancestral origins,how far back have you been able to go & if this has given you a more grounded attachment to your WMA training?Most of us have been asked at one time or another why we study WMA.How cool will it be to answer by stating that your personal genetic family history has been scientifically traced back to (whatever genetic group you're tied to) & this is your physical connection to that geographic area & historic time period.Thanks for reading.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the main reason I identify with my German ancestory (father's paternal line; as far as we've been able to trace them, the Peters are from Penzlin, near Neustrelitz, Mecklenberg/Vorpommern) is because of the huge significance of the Holy Roman Empire, and in particular, Germany, in the production of fechtbuecher. And yeah, this is one of the reasons I like to train, because it gives me a connection with my past, even although my family, to the best of my knowledge, were peasant farmers. Keep in mind, however, that it's misleading to think you can "specialize" your WMA to your exact geographic region. There is not good evidence to support WMA as differing from region to region in any significant way. Even if your family originally came from say Strasbourg, it wouldn't be really meaningful to specialize in the "Meyer style" versus say the "Paulus Kal style" or "Ringeck style" or "Mair style", whatever that means. (Such distinctions even between the masters are meaningless, in my opinion).

Here's something a bit tangential but worthy to consider: according to Andreas Capellanus in his book on courtly love, there is no peasant, no matter how poor, who does not claim to have a rich and noble relative. And, given human nature, there is no reason to believe that his statement isn't true. What intrigues me is that it seems to be true in modern times as well. Of the people whom I've talked to about their family history, one person claimed to be descended from Welsh royalty; another from royalty in the Holy Roman Empire, (although if the claim is true, it's far more likely they are descended from nobility, rather than an emperor), and another whose ancestor was knighted on his maternal side, and whose ancestor was a member of the samurai on his paternal side. Obviously, there has been a lot more time for genetic cross-over and mixing over time, more so than in the medieval period. Even so, I wonder how many people can legitimately claim to be directly descended from either the nobility and royalty? I'm sure if we use the term "descended" loosely enough that most of us have tenuous connections to the aristocracy in one way or another. It just seems odd to me that I'm the only one descended entirely from "commoner stock".
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I'm Swedish with, supposedly, a good deal of walloon blood and some sami. Not sure what kind of martial heritage that's supposed to give me.

Craig Peters wrote:
Even so, I wonder how many people can legitimately claim to be directly descended from either the nobility and royalty?


Very, very few, I'd say. And even then, they usually come with the family trees to actually back it up.

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,838

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
While trying to research my family geneology(very hard with no living relatives)


Out of curiousity, have you found any roots in Missouri and Kentucky during the early 19th century? There was a Beck family from that era in my family tree.

I have read of the family DNA project and some put a lot of time and energy into it. I have had better luck networking with kin since the internet has developed but it is an erstwhile pastime of mine going back to the 1960s.

As to martial background, I have no hard military records previous to the American Civil War but my ancestore were early settlers in the 17th-18th century Carolinas and Virginias before Kentucky and Missouri.

The DNA marker studies are interesting but I find many are reading too much into inconclusive numbers of marker matches. If you go back far enough, there is little doubt many of us are related. Not being positive of my surname entry to this country, I'm happy having it solid back to the late 17th century. My paternal grandmother's tree somehow convlutes back to the Plymouth plantation. My maternal line is a bit of a mystery on her father's side (King-British) but her maternal line came through Ellis from Naples. Great granddad Guiseppe Picazio as a wheelwright who had been born in Spain. Great grandma Angelina was born and raised in a village near Naples. Guiseppe's parquet floors still grace a few entry halls in Cambridge and Somerville, Massachusetts.

Cheers

GC
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm native Chinese.... :|
Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was obsessively involved in my maternal genealogy for 7 years, during which many people and their information benefted me and I also benefited many others. For one, I proved the "Drake" line in my ancestry by finding a will going back to the early 1800s and this line went back to Sir Francis Drake's brother Captain Thomas Drake (off hand I believe
that was his first name, Sir Francis Drake had no children. I also disproved a lineage that was thought to be true and founded by a Ph.D. back in the 40's that went back to Benjamin Harrison, the father of President Harrison, the link was an Eleanor Harrison and I proved that there was no Eleanor Harrison that was a sister of President William Henry Harrison. That the Eleanor Harrison in our line was the daughter of a Colonel Benjamin Harrison in PA.
To make this post brief, I found 3 lines back to King Edward I of England "Longshanks" (Hammer of the Scots). All were through his second wife, two were through his daughter Princess Elizabeth Plantaganet. I also found the line going back to Simon De Montfort. The link to all this nobility was a marriage of Sir George Boothe to Katherine Montfort in ca 1450.
I spent thousands of hours on this obsession, went to county seats, a couple of genealogy libraries here in the Chicago area. I'd rack my brains for hours and hours in searches, etc.and come away from the computer with my head spinning! Laughing Out Loud
I have to say though, having done all that research and now some years later becoming even more obsessed with our common interest, the genealogy that I did has benefited me wherein I know where some of my ancestors were in specific points of history.
I also have a few German lines that all go back to the black forest region, such as Wurttemburg during the 30 years war. I also go back to King Malcom III of Canmore who slew Macbeth. I even have Lady Godiva in my ancestry. LOL!
It goes on and on and I could bore everyone to tears, but I won't, in fact I will cease and desist right now!

SIncerely!

Bob
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Toni Lozica




Location: Rotterdam, NL / Korcula, HR
Joined: 13 Dec 2006

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 3:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm Croat from Dalmatia. A bit of Italian blood, basically commoners. My grandmother was Sessa originating from South Italy close to Bari. Her great grandfather escaped from Italy after killing a priest. This story runs in a family.
From my mothers side Croatian from the hills behind Dalmatian coast. Tough people there. A story that runs through that side of the family is that we could have some Turkish genes.
What a mess.... WTF?! Laughing Out Loud

Parce mihi Domine quia Dalmata sum!
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M. Wagner





Joined: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 4:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Even so, I wonder how many people can legitimately claim to be directly descended from either the nobility and royalty? I'm sure if we use the term "descended" loosely enough that most of us have tenuous connections to the aristocracy in one way or another. It just seems odd to me that I'm the only one descended entirely from "commoner stock".

Virtually everyone has noble and royal ancestors. http://www.generations.on.ca/genealogy/pedigree.htm
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 4:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
I'm native Chinese.... :|


Now, I hope I'm not terribly rude for asking, but how did you end up named Lancelot? I can't imagine it's a very common name in Hong Kong.

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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Reading list: 112 books

Posts: 1,019

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Wagner is exactly correct, virtually everyone will have nobility in their ancestry, it's just a matter of finding the lineage, which is something that I did, but it's a real thrill finding "that" lineage. I did not click the link that M. Wagner listed because it's something that I know full well from being a very seasoned amateur genealogist. As you go back generations it goes like this in numbers, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128; 256; 512; 1,024; 2,048; 4,096; 8,192; 16,384; 32,768; 65,536 ; 131,072;
262,144; 524,288 and by the 20th generation you have 1,048,576 progenitors! Off hand, the closest of the 3 lines had
King Edward I as my 23rd great grandfather. Laughing Out Loud
Something tells me that in the link it lists the amount of progenitors for each generation on back.

Anyway, yes it's very true, virtually everyone has kings in their ancestry, it's just a matter of finding the link or links and what is the most recent nobility. Believe me, genealogy is another obsession that can get really crazy!

Sincerely,

Bob
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Christopher Gregg




Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 666

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 7:38 am    Post subject: WMA and geneology         Reply with quote

Well, I'm Scottish (some might argue Scotch-Irish), descended from the MacGregor Clan. My father recently completed (?) our geneology, assembling a huge volume showing various lines of our family, both paternal, maternal and through second marriages. Being a MacGregor, and by default also of the Alpin Clan, my lineage goes back to the earliest Irish (Celt) kings, but since I identify as mostly Scot, all of my ancestors prior to the '45 would have been required to be warriors in service to their chieftan.

I myself applied to the US Air Force before graduating high school, but my eyesight was too poor to fly (didn't want to be ground crew). My hobby as of late (besides sword collecting) is 18th century living history and reenacting, so at least I get to portray a soldier in service to my country. Happy

Christopher Gregg

'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Shayan G





Joined: 26 Sep 2006

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Believe me, genealogy is another obsession that can get really crazy!


Quite true! One might say I picked Iran as the focus of my history major because of it. I get to study my great great great grandfather(s) in all their glory and tragedy as warlords and later monarchs of Iran. Silly as it is, I think finding out about that ancestry really influenced how I view myself. It really gives you something to live up to in many instances! Wink Not only when famous ancestors involved. My grandfather was a captain (and retired just before reaching admiralcy) in the US Navy in two wars and fought in numerous battles, and comported himself with dignity and honor. Hearing stories of that martial heritage from my mother growing up was both inspiring and abjectly humbling.

And at the moment I'm on an exchange program to University College Dublin--mostly for the atmosphere, but in part because one of my maternal great grandmothers was from Cork (sadly UVA doesn't yet have an economically priced program there, but I'm not complaining about Dublin, that's for sure).

But I'm very curious as to the martial arts of my ancestors. They would have had a wonderful fusion of Turkic archery and horsemanship, as well as Persian zoorkhaneh exercises. Hard to find a place to study for those outside of Iran and Central Asia! For horsemanship, I'm going to take polo classes next semester (polo originated long ago, like many other sports, as a method of training warriors in Persia) and I've been riding on and off throughout my life. Archery I loved as a kid, but when school starts monopolizing one's time, it also starts eliminating the more enriching hobbies and activities in life. And a zoorkhaneh...good luck finding that in Charlottesville! (Or Dublin!)

Wonderful thread idea, thanks for posting!
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Burns wrote:
As you go back generations it goes like this in numbers, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128; 256; 512; 1,024; 2,048; 4,096; 8,192; 16,384; 32,768; 65,536 ; 131,072;262,144; 524,288 and by the 20th generation you have 1,048,576 progenitors!


Bob

Jeff Foxworthy has noted that some family trees don't branch as much as other. Eek! Laughing Out Loud
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On being descended from nobility: In Farewell to Alms the author, an economist, reports that in Europe most people are the descendants of nobility. The reason is that (at least for 1250-1850 the period covered by this book) the rich consistenly had more children than the poor. With the poor averaging 0-1 children who survived to adulthood. The result, after a few generations, is tremendous downwward mobility. By 1500 everyone in England is descended from some nobility of 1250.

For those of with European ancestry you can pretty much claim to be from nobility without checking the tree first Laughing Out Loud

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A more interesting experiment, from our perspective, would be to calculate the odds of one's ancestors being in a given battle. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the majority of us here have claims on Towton, Crecy, Agincourt, Pavia, etc.

I suspect that we can find most anything we want to find in our ancestry. Makes it so much easier to justify that Albion Markgraf, eh?

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
On being descended from nobility: In Farewell to Alms the author, an economist, reports that in Europe most people are the descendants of nobility. The reason is that (at least for 1250-1850 the period covered by this book) the rich consistenly had more children than the poor. With the poor averaging 0-1 children who survived to adulthood. The result, after a few generations, is tremendous downwward mobility. By 1500 everyone in England is descended from some nobility of 1250.


Steven

I have not read the book so I'm speaking a little blind here. But as a former anthropologist I have to say I'm not too comfortable with such a blanted statement, espeically when it is made by an economic historian. What support for the statement does he provide in the book?

Ran Pleasant
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Sean Belair
Industry Professional




Joined: 08 Aug 2006

Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i'm descended from the MacSheehy Gallowglass on my mother's side. my father's side comes from normandy. Belair is not a norman name but i like to think i'm descended from some hard fighters.

unfortunately, in the aftermath of the desmond rebellion, the Sheehy's were booted off our lands and scattered across ireland. when the patriarch of the american sheehy's landed no record was made of his birthplace, making it impossible to track down which branch of the family we kame from. there are numerous famous and infamous sheehy's in ireland (including the aid du comp of napoleon and founder of the irish legion) but i'll never be able to tell with any certainty who if any i am directly related to.
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G.Alan Beck




Location: Seattle Washington
Joined: 23 Dec 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: WMA & Personal Geneology         Reply with quote

Mr.Flint raises a note to ponder.If indeed DNA mapping can put your ancestry in a given geographic area at a specific point in medieval history,it should be easy enough to connect these ancestors to the major battles of medieval history as we have a fairly accurate accounts of armed conflict throughout the age of man.As to specializing my training to my ancestors I should have been a little more specific.As training time is becoming harder & harder to find it would be nice to focus on a system common to my genetic ancestors,ie:not spending a lot of time on German longsword or Spanish Rapier when your ancestors where Vikings(or whatever).
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:

Steven

I have not read the book so I'm speaking a little blind here. But as a former anthropologist I have to say I'm not too comfortable with such a blanted statement, espeically when it is made by an economic historian. What support for the statement does he provide in the book?

Ran Pleasant


Hello,

I am guilty of a little exaggeration here.

In A Farewell to Alms, the author, Gregory Clark, uses a combination of sources of data to support his thesis. An examination of wills to determine the number of surviving sons in addition to birth and death records provides information on wealth, number of children surviving to adulthood and birth and death rates. He shows that for the poorer segments of society the replacement rate was consistently not met, by a substantial margin for the entire period 1250-1850. Whereas the richer segments of society consistently exceed the replacement rate by a large margin. A large enough margin that the children of the rich do not merely increase the population they must also replace the poor. Records of the time also show significant downward mobility and some limits on upward mobility.

Then end result is that the descendents of the top 10% of 1250 account of around 70-80% of the population 400 years later.

I may be somewhat off in my number since I haven't had time to double check the book yet.

I recommend the book highly, though, so perhaps you could read it too Big Grin

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan, 2008 10:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Randall, yes true, you would run out of people! Laughing Out Loud The families tie back into themselves, cross back over themselves sort of to speak. I mean it's only common sense, by 30 generations your in the 100s of millions! LOL

Bob
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