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David Huggins




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: 'New' Viking Sword'         Reply with quote

Perhaps of interest to our members http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/search/display.var..._sword.php
unfortuently the sword is only shown in silhouette due to the 'arty' press photography, although dated to 1100 the press release calls it a 'Viking' sword and it does seem to display late viking age features.

Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a different article with better photos: http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/a...ture.shtml
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Happy It look's heavy and like it have a real width blade when i compare with my hand, around 7cm or something.
Super size photo here(Link)


Frid o Fr÷jd!
Patrik
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alright! Finally I can go see one of my top 3 favorite swords. Thanks for pointing this out.

Del Tin has a replica of this sword which, according to the myArmoury review, is quite heavy and unwieldy.

Windlass/MRL used to have a replica that's somewhat lighter. I have one of these and despite being quite blade heavy, it handles decently and has been a solid sword over the years.
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Steve Maly




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Here's a different article with better photos: http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/a...ture.shtml


In the radio broadcast link on the site, the expert notes that the fuller is there to make it easier to pull the sword out of the body... Eek!

Great pics though!

"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." ~A. Maslow
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Addison C. de Lisle




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Maly wrote:
Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Here's a different article with better photos: http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/a...ture.shtml


In the radio broadcast link on the site, the expert notes that the fuller is there to make it easier to pull the sword out of the body... Eek!


I remember my English teacher told me that when I brought my Crecy in to show him; but he wasn't able to explain why more thrust oriented swords, such as the Mercenary, seem to lack fullers...

That sword is interesting; does it have some sort of inlay/inscription in the fuller?

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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Maly wrote:
In the radio broadcast link on the site, the expert notes that the fuller is there to make it easier to pull the sword out of the body... Eek!

Big Grin No! that's wrong, here in Sweden we say "Blodrńnna" (folks talk) Bloodrun, so all blood have somewhere to go Razz
Wink

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Patrik
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Ken Speed





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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An interesting sword and an interesting history/story behind it. I'm somewhat suprized that the inscription on the blade is untranslatable. It seems like these two nearly identical swords should be part of a story. Well, I suppose they are part of a story, we just don't know much of it! I suppose we probably never will.

Could someone tell me a little of the relevant history. What Viking was at the castle at that time?

I was also interested to see that Del Tin says their replica is a twelfth century sword.

I have no way to tell if the sword or the replica are unwieldy or not but they do look like they would be heavy cut and chop swords.


Ken Speed
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Allen W





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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've played with both the Del Tin and Windlass versions neither of which struck me as particularly heavy but the Del tin was a little blade heavy owing to the small pommel. As to the twelfth century date by Del Tin, I thought this was shared by Oakeshotte and was one of his defining examples of type XII. Haven't read him in a while though. It does however seem to share enough characteristics with the Scottish swords on which Albion's Caithness is based to suggest a familial relationship.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ken Speed wrote:

Could someone tell me a little of the relevant history. What Viking was at the castle at that time?


I was wondering the same thing. It does not look "Viking era" or culture at all. I suppose it is the ruinic inscriptions (Lombardic script on one side, capital Roman script on the other) that are causing archeologists to classify it as somehow related to Germanic tribes.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
Ken Speed wrote:

Could someone tell me a little of the relevant history. What Viking was at the castle at that time?


I was wondering the same thing. It does not look "Viking era" or culture at all. I suppose it is the ruinic inscriptions (Lombardic script on one side, capital Roman script on the other) that are causing archeologists to classify it as somehow related to Germanic tribes.

It seems to me pretty closely related to the swords Albion based the Thegn on.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can see it being compared with an Anglo-Saxon sword like the Theign. The guard looks to be later (12th-13th century maybe), and uncommon for 11th century. I wonder if it could have been re-hilted? The fuller looks more like a later period sword too (extending 2/3rd down the blade, not very wide. If I had to compare the blade to an Albion Viking model blade it would be the Knud (based on 11th century, U shaped pommels, something like 5 examples in total known, none of which remind me of this sword.)

The sword is actually described as "a 900 year old Viking sword" (putting it close to 11th century) in this article; http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/yorknews/disp..._sword.php

It is speculated (not sure why) that King Athelstane may have built the first fortification at this find's site in the 10th century. The earliest known recorded mention was at the end of 12th century. There was a lot of activity and visiting nobility 13th - 14th century.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Ken Speed





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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared wrote,

" The sword is actually described as "a 900 year old Viking sword" (putting it close to 11th century) in this article; http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/yorknews/disp..._sword.php "

First. let me be totally straight forward about this. I do not and do not purport to know a lot about swords historical or otherwise. I'm quite content to accept it as what we have been told. I'm trying to get a perspective on how a Scandinavian sword got to Yorkshire in the 11th century. The battle of Stamford bridge was in 1066, just before the battle of Hastings and Stamford bridge was supposed to have been so disastrous for the Vikings that it literally marked the end of the Viking age as it relates to raiding along the Atlantic. For that matter, Del Tin says the replica of the swords mate that they sell is a 12th century sword. OK, but what intercourse (not THAT kind of intercourse, calm down) was happening between Yorkshire and Scandinavia in the 11 and/or 12 centuries? I think it becomes especially intriguing when there is an inscription that no one can translate and only one other sword like it in the world and that one in Norway. That's why it seems to me that there is a real story here somewhere and its lost!

The Crusades were later than that weren't they? I guess my problem is that I don't really know what was happening in Scandinavia and Britain at that time. In the U.S. there is no end of books about British history because it so strongly relates to American history but to find a history of Scandinavia in English in the U.S. is like trying to find a history of Barsoom. It's really frustrating, its like being in a dark room and having a strobe light go off at irregular intervals, Flash Count Ferson (Marie Antoinette's lover) Flash Gastav Adolf and the Thirty Years War, Flash Alfred Nobel, Flash Quisling.

"It is speculated (not sure why) that King Athelstane may have built the first fortification at this find's site in the 10th century. The earliest known recorded mention was at the end of 12th century. There was a lot of activity and visiting nobility 13th - 14th century.[/quote] ;" . I can't see a nobleman from Scandinavia going to 14th Century Britain with an 11Century sword, can you?

Best regards,




Ken Speed
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ken Speed wrote:
That's why it seems to me that there is a real story here somewhere and its lost!


I think there is a real story. I fear I may never know it, but am interested. The Lombardic and Latin fonts may be ruinic, but don't "sound" exclusively Danish-Viking. I searched to find a good picture of the inscriptions, but have not obtained one so far. The sword looks a lot like ones I have noticed in Norman and other cultures' art of era just after Viking age. I have repeated this often here, but Vikings used the same swords that a lot of others used (Gauls, generic Migration era tribes, Merovingians, Normans, etc.) I have not studied seax's, fransicas, etc., but figure there are some uniquely Viking weapons, as well as ruinic symbols that have a higher chance of pin pointing something as having been made by Vikings. We know that they traveled over broad expanses of Europe, and possessed swords (Ulfbrecht, etc.) made far away from their Northern territory during Viking age.

I

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's what our Type XII spotlight article says about it:

Quote:
XII.7 Located in a private collection, once on loan to the Tower Armouries
Oakeshott refers to this sword as "outstandingly important" and dates it circa 1100-50, despite other scholars dating it to nearly 200 years later. He refers to another sword, XII.3 above, that is nearly identical. Inscriptions on the 32" long blade, in two distinct letterforms, closely match other 11th-12th century examples. Detailed analysis of these details can be found in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword.



Happy

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David Huggins




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am no expert but there appears to be some common misconceptions here, the fuller on 'viking' blades has often been described by some as the 'blood grove' to allow easy removal from a body, or even by twisting the sword it makes extraction easy because the fuller prevents suction from the flesh of the wound when the blade is twisted to remove!

My own understanding is that the fuller is simply there to remove weight from the blade without distracting from its strength.

Why would Yorkshire have 'Viking' or scandanavian cultural influence in the late 11th C?

This part of northern England had been under Norse and Danish influence for over 200 years since the Danes first took over the Anglian stronghold of the regions capital which we now know as York, and the Danes called Jorvik, and many other place names and personal names associated to the area attest to their influence. Jorvik was a major trading centre for the import of goods from Ireland and Scandanavia, the Baltic and beyond.

It should be remembered that the use of runes was also practised by both the Anglo-Saxon and Scandanavians, and it is not suprising the the runic inscription has not been deciphered as is the case of other runic inscriptions, some of these runes can be described as been 'magical' inscribtions and can not always be deciphered (or are described as magical because they can not be dechipered by modern scholars!)

I believe this sword was found within the property of a local high status clergy member.


Dave

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Shamsi Modarai




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow.....this was in the Yorkshire Museum over the holidays and I missed it? Darn! I was in the US visiting my family. I'm now back in York for the Spring term and I definitely hope I can see this at the time of the Viking Festival in February!
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Ken Speed





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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All,

You can probably tell that the mystery around these two swords interests me. Well, I did a little bit of research and while I can't claim that I found anything that directly connects to these swords I did find some things in the approximate time period that might connect to them in one way or another. I'll list them chronologically. If anyone wants to eliminate any of the events I list or add others, write and make a persuasive argument for your point and we'll see what happens.


1096 Start of the First Crusade

1099 Crusaders take Jerusalem

1100 William Rufus accidentally killed

1103 Magnus III of Norway killed invading Ireland

1104 Acre taken by Crusaders

1109 to 1113 England and France at war

1139 English Civil War/Queen Matilda

1170 Thomas Becket murdered

1187 Saladin defeats Crusaders at Hattin and takes Jerusalem

1194 Richard the Lionhearted is released and crowned King for the second time

1225 Magna Carta issued in its definitive form

1248 Lombards defeat Frederick II

1263 Haakon of Norway defeated by the Scots at Largs


This might be fun, who knows?


Ken Speed
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Hugh Fuller




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 7:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:
I am no expert but there appears to be some common misconceptions here, the fuller on 'viking' blades has often been described by some as the 'blood grove' to allow easy removal from a body, or even by twisting the sword it makes extraction easy because the fuller prevents suction from the flesh of the wound when the blade is twisted to remove!

My own understanding is that the fuller is simply there to remove weight from the blade without distracting from its strength.

Why would Yorkshire have 'Viking' or scandanavian cultural influence in the late 11th C?

This part of northern England had been under Norse and Danish influence for over 200 years since the Danes first took over the Anglian stronghold of the regions capital which we now know as York, and the Danes called Jorvik, and many other place names and personal names associated to the area attest to their influence. Jorvik was a major trading centre for the import of goods from Ireland and Scandanavia, the Baltic and beyond.

It should be remembered that the use of runes was also practised by both the Anglo-Saxon and Scandanavians, and it is not suprising the the runic inscription has not been deciphered as is the case of other runic inscriptions, some of these runes can be described as been 'magical' inscribtions and can not always be deciphered (or are described as magical because they can not be dechipered by modern scholars!)

I believe this sword was found within the property of a local high status clergy member.


Dave

David, you must remember that the area around York resisted William's occupation very hard and that he went north to put an end to that resistance. The result was a "search and destroy" kind of expedition that left the Northumbrian area burnt out and desolate for some years thereafter. I would suggest that it is probable that there was little left of Norse influence by the time that William was done. Perhaps those more specialized in that period can give us more information on this.

Hugh
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David Huggins




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Jan, 2008 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh,

The ''Harrying of the North' 1069, did not effectively end Norse influence in the North. Personnel names still had Norse names even in the 12th and 13th Century, see Stantons 'The Free Peasantry of the Northern Danelaw' 1969. These shires had other such distinctive features - fragments of Danish speech and Danish placenames.

Even William paid Dane geld in 1070, the Danes also took York in 1075, and again 1085 . For furter reading I'd suggest 'The English Resistance' by Peter Rex for an overview of the decades after 1066.

Dave

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