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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 4:37 am    Post subject: Introducing... The Burgundian         Reply with quote

This is a nice singlehander with a classic look - an alternative hilt on the hollow-ground Kingmaker blade.

Sorry for the sub-par (even for me) photos - the weather has been tricky lately for photography.



More photos here:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...-xviii.htm

and here:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...photos.htm

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, you guys have been busy lately with 4 new swords coming into production at the same time ( All within a few weeks anyway. Wink Laughing Out Loud )

I guess, when the " logjam " in the design/production flow was dynamited free, somehow, a lot of these promised for a long time swords are stating to become real !

I really like the 3 Dimensionality of the pommel as well as the ends of the crossguard " echoing " the shape of the pommel but not as an exact copy of the pommel.

Well, I'm really happy about buying the Doge and you are " killing " me with all these appealing swords coming out all at the same time. Eek! Laughing Out Loud

Need to win a Lottery soon. Sad Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mike Arledge




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really, really like this one. Very Italian look and feel, as unique in those respects as the Doge. Keep em coming!!
Mike J Arledge

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Justin King
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Change the guard and it would look kinda like a mini-Regent! I like this one too, nice to see you guys turning out these designs I've been drooling at for so long.
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Anders Backlund




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm a bit surprised, actually. When I saw the concept art, I was convinced this would be my definitive favorite sword by Albion. But now that I see it for real, something seems a bit off.

Don't get me wrong, it is a lovely sword, but there's just something about it that rubs me the wrong way. I can't put my finger on it. WTF?!
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That surely is a beautiful sword.

It must be quite a balancing act, putting different pommels on the same blade and getting them all to handle in a harmonious manner. For instance, the Burgundian and the Kingmaker -- the Condotierre, the Kern, and the Machiavelli -- the 2 XVa blades.
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow! Another great success! You guys have been on fire lately! When I looked at your website I realized that all of the Viking swords are in production and there are only two single handers to go. It makes me think back to when the Next Gen line was ALL drawings and how nice it is to own some of these swords and to be able to see the rest in production! Keep up the great work guys!!!!!! I love the pommel on the Burgundian. It really suits the blade! I also like that the grip is burgundy!
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Arledge wrote:
I really, really like this one. Very Italian look and feel, as unique in those respects as the Doge. Keep em coming!!


Actually, i don't think there is anything italian about it...unless i'm mistaken, Burgundy was a franco-germanic kingdom...

Furthermore, from Albion's summary of the sword:

"It can often be difficult to pinpoint a geographic origin for medieval sword types. Oakeshott believed that it would not be unreasonable to see a north west European association for type V pommels. " (emphasis mine)
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Geoff Wood




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin R. Reagan wrote:
Mike Arledge wrote:
I really, really like this one. Very Italian look and feel, as unique in those respects as the Doge. Keep em coming!!


Actually, i don't think there is anything italian about it...unless i'm mistaken, Burgundy was a franco-germanic kingdom...

Furthermore, from Albion's summary of the sword:

"It can often be difficult to pinpoint a geographic origin for medieval sword types. Oakeshott believed that it would not be unreasonable to see a north west European association for type V pommels. " (emphasis mine)


I'd have thought the Lord of Milan would be considered quite Italian, which is the owner suggested (Oakeshott, Records) for one of the three surviving examples of this type of hilt..
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Geoff Wood wrote:

I'd have thought the Lord of Milan would be considered quite Italian, which is the owner suggested (Oakeshott, Records) for one of the three surviving examples of this type of hilt..


I didn't say anything about the nationality of who may or may not have owned a sword with this style hilt...

Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

1) Burgundy was a Franco-Germanic kingdom. The sword is named after this region.
2) According to Albion, Oakeshott attributed this style hilt to north-western europe. Maybe Albion is wrong in this regard? I don't know.

Dustin
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Geoff Wood wrote:
I'd have thought the Lord of Milan would be considered quite Italian, which is the owner suggested (Oakeshott, Records) for one of the three surviving examples of this type of hilt..


The Wallace Collection example is listed as "Italian?" in the catalogue, giving us two out of three examples with an Italian connection.

Happy

ChadA

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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Geoff Wood wrote:
I'd have thought the Lord of Milan would be considered quite Italian, which is the owner suggested (Oakeshott, Records) for one of the three surviving examples of this type of hilt..


The Wallace Collection example is listed as "Italian?" in the catalogue, giving us two out of three examples with an Italian connection.



Hmm, I see...so Albion may have "misnamed" this sword. (not that it's a big deal -- I love the look of this sword!)

Dustin
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The idea of such a sword - or rather, such a pommel being associated with North-Western Europe kind of makes sense to me - and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with such an opinion.

The pommels on the Cluny/'Milan' sword and the one that once belonged to Oakeshott are slightly different. The Cluny/'Milan' sword has a strong, well-defined ridge, also. I'll try to decypher the inlays on the Forte next time I'm there BTW, just to check if it can really be asociated with a lord of Milan - thing is, it's not because a famous bloke had such a sowrd, that the said sword came from his own place. It's even truer with high-ranking individuals, actually.

Remember there were a lot of exchanges between the various courts at the time. Remember, also, that the North-Italian and Burgundian courts had rather close ties (within the limit of Realpolitik, of course).

Besides, in terms of style, if you compare with other well-known North-Italian swords attributed to the elite, you'll see mainly pear-shaped/globular pommels. Same on the artwork.


I think a sword with a very similar pommel has been found in Switzerland, also.In the Bodensee, to be precise, and is now kept in Zurich (LM 8096 as the call number). Also, Peter Finer has one for sale, of longsword proportions, if you have a spare Ł10,000 to 25,000 to spend.

I also think that in the catalogue of the late exhibition A bon Droyt - now in Florence BTW, the curator of the Cluny museum also thinks of a possible north/western origin for such pommel types. I'll ask him next time I call him.


I though I had artwork supporting my assertions at hand, but at 6:00 am here and after 8 hours spent on the finishing touches of an article, I'm a bit too tired to search my entire HD, if you don't mind. My bed is calling. But tomorrow I'll try to dig out more info. Happy


Fab



PS : Maybe, maybe what is a bit off with that sword are the quillon ends, and the grip. I'd have seen something more 'waisted', more 'bottle-shaped'. Of course, this opinon is based on the Cluny/'Milan' and Wallace swords, the grips of which we're utterly unsure of the dating and origin. But the lines are more 'flowing', more following the gentle curves of the pommel sides. And the handling of the Wallace sword was not too bad either. But with a name liek "the Burgundian", I can't complain too much Happy

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Jason Elrod




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 2:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Backlund wrote:
I'm a bit surprised, actually. When I saw the concept art, I was convinced this would be my definitive favorite sword by Albion. But now that I see it for real, something seems a bit off.

Don't get me wrong, it is a lovely sword, but there's just something about it that rubs me the wrong way. I can't put my finger on it. WTF?!


Anders I agree with you. The pommel seems too small in the pictures but that really isn't what bothers me the most. My problem is I find that the lines of the pommel and guard don't "harmonize" for me. The guard appears very flat and linear. Though I do see what could possibly be a central rib on the guard running perpendicular to the blade, it doesn't stand out enough. Plus compare the guard in the line drawing to the final product. The line drawing guard is straight and then flairs out on the ends. It has a curvature to it very much like the pommel. The production guard is a triangle. No curve what so ever. Either the pommel needs to be made more angular or the cross needs to be "softer" and more round. All that being said I do appreciate how the central rib on the blade is pulled through the guard and hexagonal grip and into the pommel.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 3:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice! I am wondering if you guys have actually left the shop at all in the past two months!

M.

This space for rent or lease.
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Wow...         Reply with quote

In my humble opinion, this one turned out really well. Having handled the Kingmaker, I can attest to the exquisite handling characteristics of this particular blade. This more slender, almost-XVIIIa-ish blade works extremely well with these fittings, which seem to accentuate the blade's length and pointedness.

My primary concern with the original sketch was that the guard appeared sort of like an octagonal-sectioned (something like a Style 2) cross, but I am glad to see these flatter, more spatulate quillons and raised, diamond-shaped ecusson. They give the sword an interesting detail when viewed close-up.

Although it's a tad flamboyant for my tastes (I tend to prefer the stark, utilitarian designs, like the Munich), I still have to concede that this is one well-concieved, well-designed, well-crafted product.

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey guys!

Thanks for all your response and questions.
It is indeed an open question wether to give this type of hilt a north western european origin or to place it is Italy. You see both mentioned. Perhaps there was a belt of popularity stretching from northern Italy up to flemish lands, via burgundy.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

...Also, before I answer questions on the shape (or lack thereof Wink) of the hilt components, I would like to wait until Howy has had a chanse to take some photos in better light. There are defining planes, bevels and ridges that does really not show clearly in the present pics.
You would also need to see the pommel and guard in slanting angles and in side way profile to get an idea of the volume.

If you do or do not like what youŽll eventually see, that is another matter Happy
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 5:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
...Also, before I answer questions on the shape (or lack thereof Wink) of the hilt components, I would like to wait until Howy has had a chanse to take some photos in better light. There are defining planes, bevels and ridges that does really not show clearly in the present pics.
You would also need to see the pommel and guard in slanting angles and in side way profile to get an idea of the volume.

If you do or do not like what youŽll eventually see, that is another matter Happy

Taste is a very personal thing, which, I am sure, is one reason why Albion has many models in their product line. I happen to like the looks of this Burgundian. But I prefer the Kingmaker Laughing Out Loud .

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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Dustin R. Reagan"]
Mike Arledge wrote:
I really, really like this one. Very Italian look and feel, as unique in those respects as the Doge. Keep em coming!!


"Actually, i don't think there is anything italian about it...unless i'm mistaken, Burgundy was a franco-germanic kingdom..."



I think the overall weapon has a distinctive "flemish" appearance, maybe handling in the future will confirm this...

Either way Burgundy was indeed a territory issuing from the kingdom of France. Yet at the time this sword would have been in use the small Duchy of Burgundy had been considerably enlarged by the various marital and martial policies of the Valois dukes (Philippe le Hardi; Jean Sans Peur; Philippe le Bon; Charles le Travaillant) stretching from the Low Countries nearly to the Alps. Admittedly the last valois duke managed to demolish in ten years what took nearly a century to construct... Mad Evil

But "Burgundy" was not a kingdom at this time, it hadn't been since the end of the "Burgonds" during the early or high middle ages. It was in fact the desire to construct an actual kingdom (along with all the wonderful status this brought to the ruler...) and the belief that he was righlty entitled to do so that led Charles le Travaillant (not unjustly called "the Rash" in our fair english Happy ) to mad military actions, unwise political decisions and ultimately the demise of the territorial entity seperating the kingdom of France from the Holy Roman Empire.

All that to say that I think the lines of the weapon make it flemish rather than italian Happy

and just to ram the final nail in the coffin: we would do well never to forget that there is a huge difference between nationality of the owner and that of the manufacturer (or manufacturers as the case may be) as has already been stated by many.



secondary thought: notice how "martial" and "marital" are only different by the placement of one letter? Food for thought?... Razz
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