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Van de Laak





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Fri 04 Jan, 2008 11:31 pm    Post subject: My first florysh.. be gentle..         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V58MiSjQzDM

Any comments are welcome! Thanks. (don't expect much, its quite lame, for I am a newbie)
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jan, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

What exactly *is* a flourish, and which manual discusses them?

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This looks very much like the kind of stuff I improv for fun. Wink

I've seen faster and more fluid moves, but as you say, you're a beginner. Just work it into your muscle memory! XD
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Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Only problem I see is that you need to watch your edge alignment on the rising cut prior to Ox. You're twisting the edge out of line just a little prematurely. Of course I can't see the imaginary opponent to be sure but I think you should cut cleanly to Ox before rolling the edge over if you you wish to roll it at all.
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good job, and keep doing these, they will very much help your technique. Be sure that your hands and feet are coordinated--although it might take a little while to feel the two "click" together (a feeling of more powerful attacks with less work is a clue that this is starting to happen).

Also, don't neglect simple solo drills; that is, the same one or two cuts over and over (with careful attention paid to the feet).

The one big piece of advice I have is to do this type of stuff a lot--you won't necessarily see the improvement day to day, but as the repetitions add up into the thousands, you'll notice a difference as the movements of your body begin to find a concordance. Oh yeah, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER go faster than the speed at which you can perceive all of the movements of your body--that brings many bad habits. Your controlled speed will increase in time (and uncontrolled speed is as dangerous to you as it is to your opponent).

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Van de Laak





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan, 2008 4:19 am    Post subject: Thanks         Reply with quote

sorry double post...

Last edited by Van de Laak on Sun 06 Jan, 2008 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Van de Laak





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan, 2008 4:20 am    Post subject: Thanks         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the constructive comments so far... I realise that I end the unterhau directly into ochs with the blade horizontal, I will work on that... keeping it vertical all the way up, and only then go into ochs. I just did a few unterhaus keeping it vertical, and suddenly I heard that magical swoosh sound. So I guess I doing something right now... hehe. Another thing I noticed is that I have to keep my head straight. Again thanks, and if there are any more tips... they are welcome! Greetings from a Dutchman in Hong Kong.
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Hello,

What exactly *is* a flourish, and which manual discusses them?


The term appears in the English sources on longsword (such as the "Harleian" manuscript).

More info can be found at The Black Falcon School of Arms (no affiliation). Ben Roberts has this video from this thread on his interpretation.

Meyer also describes a sequence which seems similar in purpose. Giovanni dall'Agocchie's book Dell'Arte di Scrimia describes the same kind activity

The term gives all appearances of describing solo work like that done by Van de Laak. However, I do not like making my own up (and prefer to do simpler drills).

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan, 2008 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: My first florysh.. be gentle..         Reply with quote

Van de Laak wrote:


Any comments are welcome! Thanks. (don't expect much, its quite lame, for I am a newbie)


Hello,

Not a bad start. How long have you been studying and what have you been using for sources?

I would strongly encourage footwork that less linear. The Lichtenauer lineage includes frequent instructions step well to one side of the opponent. Such flanking steps are a great advantage in combat.

As for how to move forward from this:
1) lots of drills of just a particular cut done with footwork
2) Fewer mittelhau. They have only minimal value in combat besides the zwerch (just check how many plays from the manuals instruct a mittelhau).
3) Fewer passing steps in a row. Against an opponent are you unlikely to make more than one or two passing steps unless they are running away. Instead step side-to-side or circle around the opponent to out flank them (I specifically meaning circling with blade contact/action NOT just circling from outside of range).

-Steven

P.S. Ochs with the blade nearly vertical is just as correct as horizontal.

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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G.S. Lutz




Location: Mountain View, CA
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
This is an excellent start. My only comment is to slow wayyyyyy down.
My technique can be fast as lightning, but that doesn't make it correct. I will introduce new movement in at 1/4 speed to make sure that my hands are in the right line, my hips are making the connection etc.

If we learn a bad habit at speed then it is much longer to counteract and fix, for we are wanting to go fast and use it.

cheers,

Greg L
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Van de Laak





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jan, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Thanks         Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments, I will work on slowing it down and use more sloping passes. I only have Tobler's book (German Longsword) and the Ochs DVD. But I have a lot of background in kung fu (white eyebrow style) I know it has not much to do with Liechtenauer but it helps quite a bit with picking up things more quickly. I only have been practising like this for two hours or so. (with sword in hand that is) 10 - 15 minutes after diner in an outside parking lot) and occassionally in the sitting room using the reflection of my main window as a mirror. But I have to be careful though, not hitting any furniture, haha.
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not a bad start. Work s-l-o-w-l-y for now and coordinate your body movements more - do you see (or hear) when you are stomping your foot? That's because your body is slightly out of sequence and you're off balance. Narrow the angle of your oberhau (they shouldn't be wider than 45 degrees, some styles, such as Fiore, are narrower) , and make sure you arms are well extended but don't lock out. Avoid looking down at your feet or at your sword - you should be looking at the "opponent". Remember that wherever the big toe of the lead foot points is where the power of the cut goes, so make sure that when you step it is straight into the "target".

Again, all basic things and you're off to a fine start - just keep working at it.

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
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Posts: 337

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This looks very much like "Kata" in the Japanese forms. One starts out simple and slow intill the movements become natural and flowing.

Good start, keep going!

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 5:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
What exactly *is* a flourish, and which manual discusses them?

From the ARMA web site: http://www.thearma.org/terms2.htm

Quote:
“To Flourish” – An English term from at least the mid 1300s used in the brief English sword text, MS 39564, c. mid-1400s, to refer to the brandishing of a weapon with large showy movements during practice or prior to play or fight. Used now to mean a practice routine of cuts and thrusts with appropriate footwork.

A flourish is an unstructured set of movements that are never repeated in the same order, it is an expression of techniques, guards, footwork, etc., that have already learned. One goal of a flourish is to learn to move from the performance of one techniques into the performance of another technique with proper footwork in a safe, graceful, martially sound manner. The end goal is to be able at some point to perform techniques at full power and speed. Flourish has been a standard part of training in ARMA since at least 2000.

Please note that a flourish is not a kata. A kate is a well defined set of movements used to teach one or more techniques. A flourish is not used to teach a given technique. A flourish must never be repeated, else one can develop a pattern of movement that can be recognized by an adversary.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A flourish can also be likened to shadow boxing. The fighter envisions his or her opponent facing them and goes through the motions of an imaginary fight. It's like fighting without an actual opponent.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:


Quote:
“To Flourish” – An English term from at least the mid 1300s used in the brief English sword text, MS 39564, c. mid-1400s, to refer to the brandishing of a weapon with large showy movements during practice or prior to play or fight. Used now to mean a practice routine of cuts and thrusts with appropriate footwork.

A flourish is an unstructured set of movements that are never repeated in the same order, it is an expression of techniques, guards, footwork, etc., that have already learned. One goal of a flourish is to learn to move from the performance of one techniques into the performance of another technique with proper footwork in a safe, graceful, martially sound manner. The end goal is to be able at some point to perform techniques at full power and speed. Flourish has been a standard part of training in ARMA since at least 2000.

Please note that a flourish is not a kata. A kate is a well defined set of movements used to teach one or more techniques. A flourish is not used to teach a given technique. A flourish must never be repeated, else one can develop a pattern of movement that can be recognized by an adversary.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Hello Ran,

Is the idea of never repeating a flourysh an ARMA idea?

I ask because several sources, that I listed above, do in fact script flouryshes. I suspect that these flouryshes (i.e. the Harleian) are intended to practice moving from one action to another, but that in combat only a brief piece of a flourysh will show up at a time.

Can we be sure that historically flouryshes weren't used for teaching techniques? No doubt that they train and improve understanding of transitions but do they also teach techniques? I'm not that familiar with the sources that have flouryshes so I don't know.

Also, do you know the source for that definition of flourysh? I am particularly curious about the "large, showy" part of the definition, as that seems to go against how ARMA and others use flouryshes.

Thanks,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Van de Laak





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject: Thanks again...         Reply with quote

I would like to thank all you guys again for the constructive and very helpful comments. I am glad that I posted this clip on Youtube and mentioned it here. Even though I hesitated a bit to post this clip, for I know its not very well executed... therefore it might be a bit embarassing. Nevertheless based on the comments you all gave I was able to correct a lot of errors. Especially my unterhau has improved a lot, looking back I should have know that I didn't execute stuff, the unterhau in particular, correctly. Perhaps later I will upload another clip to compare with. Things I will focus on:

Posture, head up, straight up.
Alignment of the unterhau, and the position of my arms, keeping them more or less straight while going up, into the "unicorn" then pulling back to Ochs.
Angle of the oberhau. (I was scared hitting in the concrete, hence the mittelhau like oberhau)
Slow, but smooth.
Not stepping straight forward, using sideway sloping steps instead.
Let the cuts "hang" instead of following through. Of perhaps both, but in different sets. Just to get the feel and control.
Use more guards. (I noticed that I only use Pflug and Ochs, actually I know why, most of the time I quickly grab my sword while in the sitting room and practise some guards a few minutes at a time, but due to the ceiling and narrowness of the room, I can't practise Von Tag or Shrankhut etc.) Remember I live in Hong Kong, and the rooms are tiny here, hehe.

Thanks again.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks again...         Reply with quote

Van de Laak wrote:
Remember I live in Hong Kong, and the rooms are tiny here, hehe.

Thanks again.


Then maybe you could get in touch with Lancelot Chan who is also in Hong Kong and who seems to have a nice rooftop to practice on. ( I'm assuming you don't know him or know of him, and he is a member here on myArmoury ).

He also run this company that sells practice weapons: http://www.rsw.com.hk/rpj.htm

You might be able to join him and others to train ?

His profile: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/profile.php?mod...&u=297

Link to sparring competition Topic thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Van de Laak





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 7:56 pm    Post subject: Fixed flourysh         Reply with quote

"Is the idea of never repeating a flourysh an ARMA idea?"

Even though I am a beginner... I would like to offer my opinion.

In my opinion it is a good idea NOT to repeat a flourysh. For example Bruce Lee, whether you don't like the man or not is irrelevant, he had some visionary thoughts; he never practised any fixed forms. (perhaps only when he was younger, but later on he moved away from that) Even though I practised White Eyebrow Kung Fu since 1988, where we only practised fixed forms, I agree with him. Practising fixed forms will teach you certain moves, which is good, but practising the same forms over and over again, will make you an inflexible robot. It would be much better to learn all individual moves independently and then go shadowboxing. You will be flexible in your moves and perhaps you will even be able to actually fight, instead of showing off a fancy fixed form. The same with Liechtenauer or any other martial art. However I can understand why they made such fixed forms in martial arts, they are an excellent theorical tool, and you can use them nicely to standardize the art and teaching, but for practical usage they are useless.
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Van de Laak





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks again...         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Van de Laak wrote:
Remember I live in Hong Kong, and the rooms are tiny here, hehe.

Thanks again.


Then maybe you could get in touch with Lancelot Chan who is also in Hong Kong and who seems to have a nice rooftop to practice on. ( I'm assuming you don't know him or know of him, and he is a member here on myArmoury ).

He also run this company that sells practice weapons: http://www.rsw.com.hk/rpj.htm

You might be able to join him and others to train ?

His profile: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/profile.php?mod...&u=297

Link to sparring competition Topic thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=


Thanks! I actually do know him, but the point is that I have only very limited time available, mostly only on Sundays, and then its only free sparring. My plan is to practise solo first (which I like) and perhaps join later. However I should be nice if he has a student who lives near my area (Tseung Kwan O), perhaps we can practise a half hour or so during weekdays evenings, were I live there is a huge outside parking lot, which is seldomly used. So Lance if you are reading this... u got any students who might be interested?
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