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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Videos of my part in a sparring competition Reply to topic
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 4:53 am    Post subject: Videos of my part in a sparring competition         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vQAJNG8V74

I was invited as a guest competitor in a free style sparring competition hosted by a local sword forum. We agreed that I would only spar in the first division to give the newcomers more chance to win the game. It was the first time I sparred in a competition environment. I had been doing free sparring for very long time, in friendly practice mostly, and on a few occasions doing a duel. However, relying on judges to say what's a valid hit and what's not was a new experience to me. So I have to hit harder and become more obvious in my attacks so that the judges could detect my hits easier. There were six division bouts. They came up with "survival rate" to decide who would proceed to the next divison. I won the division I was in at 76% survival rate, the highest of the day. My opponent's arsenal included Chinese single handed jian, double handed jian, twin katana and a basket-hilt + buckler. It was not the easiest environment for a single longsword to survive.

From the semi-final on to the final bout, it was 1 hit-kill mode where the winner was decided by a single valid hit (disabling / killing). The final fight lasted around 5 mins with both parties, 1 using a single handed Chinese Jian and the other wielding 2 Japanese katateuchi, taking many glancing slices and thrusts without a decisive hit. At last the one with twin swords hit the guy with jian at the head with a killing blow and won the prize.

A student from Australia Stoccata school, Clinton, who studies German longsword under Andrew Brew also got to the semi final with a single longsword against all odds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18XhBm-LOhs

After the division sparring, I asked my kendo friend to spar with me, who took up a chinese two handed jian instead of katana. Next, I joined up a queue where I could do some sparring with another esteemed kendoka (the same guy who was wielding twin katana in the division sparring) who was wielding a single katana this time. In these unofficial bouts I switched back to my normal mode because of the lack of need to let judges to acknowledge my hits. Wink

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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Lancelot,

It seems strange to me that this competition would feature opponents with totally unrelated weapons from completely diiferent cultures and completely different time periods. Did I read your post correctly. Do you know the reasoning for this?

Jeremy
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks fun...it's something we do in the SCA sometimes with teenagers who's too young for heavy armor training or with justa bunch of other people when we don't wanna lug on all our armor bits.

I'm not surprised by the results. You were at least holding your sword correctly. Almost everyone else I saw was holding their sword out in a "look at me I'm cool" position. Especially the sword and buckler guy. If your gonna use a center grip buckler you should at least line up your sword or punch with it. Also with an active shield, he should have is sword back and in the ready position over a guard position(This also works well with the twin sword, but a A frame stance usually works better with twin swords). Although for some better results, I suggest you watch your footwork. You have a habit of crossing up your legs as you move, This mean less stability, control and speed for you attacks.

What kind of swords are you using? Wooden? foam?
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hhehehe because it's how we practice in Hong Kong here every week, so it doesn't seem strange to us. And that's also what I originally made Realistic Sparring Weapons for, so that there will be an equal platform for all different kind of weapons from different culture and period to spar on.

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Hello Lancelot,

It seems strange to me that this competition would feature opponents with totally unrelated weapons from completely diiferent cultures and completely different time periods. Did I read your post correctly. Do you know the reasoning for this?

Jeremy

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll pay more attention to that. I think I was being less careful with my footwork on the wooden floor because it was too stable compare to the dry sandy ground on the hill and the uneven brick floor on the rooftop.

The swords we were using were Realistic Sparring Weapons that I made. They're made of foam layer with plastic core and metal reinforcement, weight and balance are tuned to be exact of the real swords they are trying to simulate. So my sword was made after my personal tinker longsword. It weights and balances the same.

P. Cha wrote:
Looks fun...it's something we do in the SCA sometimes with teenagers who's too young for heavy armor training or with justa bunch of other people when we don't wanna lug on all our armor bits.

I'm not surprised by the results. You were at least holding your sword correctly. Almost everyone else I saw was holding their sword out in a "look at me I'm cool" position. Especially the sword and buckler guy. If your gonna use a center grip buckler you should at least line up your sword or punch with it. Also with an active shield, he should have is sword back and in the ready position over a guard position(This also works well with the twin sword, but a A frame stance usually works better with twin swords). Although for some better results, I suggest you watch your footwork. You have a habit of crossing up your legs as you move, This mean less stability, control and speed for you attacks.

What kind of swords are you using? Wooden? foam?

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 10:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah...so they are pretty much like the PVC core boffers we make in the SCA. While most don't try to emulate balance and weight, there is enough people who do. I had a habit of using cement wheel on my weapons for the pommel as counterweight often because they are cheaper then metal hehe. Although at proper weight, many people complain that the boffers hit a bit too hard for boffer combat. Your examples are pretty nice...but at that prices I think I'd spring for the really nice dense foam LARP swords (yeah yeah, not close to real weight, but their balance is surprisingly good for a fake weapon).
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lance why do you feel a jian would work out but a longsword wouldn't survive as you say?

Good fights btw.

J

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Anders Nilsson




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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quite nice fights.

It do seem like some tend to be a bit suicidal. Some kamikaze moves, straigh forward. I don´t think that they will do like that after some sparring with wasters or steel, it hurts to much so one doesn´t want to get hit. Since they tend to be kamikaze you could use that against them, pivot step forward and right and you get them.

I like your style thou, how long have you been training?
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I didn't think a jian would work out either. That's why I think the guy in the final fight who fought with a jian all along the way was being extraordinary.

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Lance why do you feel a jian would work out but a longsword wouldn't survive as you say?

Good fights btw.

J

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks. I have been training seriously for maybe 6 to 7 years, but had been messing around with swords for a lot longer than that. Unfortunately there was no historical western swordsmanship instructor in Hong Kong so I had to work on it myself and took quite a long time to achieve so little.

Anders Nilsson wrote:
Quite nice fights.

It do seem like some tend to be a bit suicidal. Some kamikaze moves, straigh forward. I don´t think that they will do like that after some sparring with wasters or steel, it hurts to much so one doesn´t want to get hit. Since they tend to be kamikaze you could use that against them, pivot step forward and right and you get them.

I like your style thou, how long have you been training?

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Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Nilsson wrote:
Quite nice fights.

It do seem like some tend to be a bit suicidal. Some kamikaze moves, straigh forward. I don´t think that they will do like that after some sparring with wasters or steel, it hurts to much so one doesn´t want to get hit. Since they tend to be kamikaze you could use that against them, pivot step forward and right and you get them.

I like your style thou, how long have you been training?


SOME?!? Yikes man, almost all of them were pretty suicidal and straight foward. With the length advanatage of a longsword, against new people like that, I prefer the side guard vs the mid guard. Oddly enough, because I started with kendo, I honestly prefer the high guard with a longsword when facing other's with a longsword (because a european high guard stance works nothing like the kendo stance...but it's close enough to cause a lot of problems).
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Thanks. I have been training seriously for maybe 6 to 7 years, but had been messing around with swords for a lot longer than that. Unfortunately there was no historical western swordsmanship instructor in Hong Kong so I had to work on it myself and took quite a long time to achieve so little.


So how do you feel about a shield? hehe. Proper sword and shield use at something like that tourney seems almost wrong...almost Happy .
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Although at proper weight, many people complain that the boffers hit a bit too hard for boffer combat.


That was my experience with making realistic (2.75 lbs or 1.25 kg and higher) weight padded swords with realistic balance and proportions for unarmoured sparring. Without padded gloves, these can tear the flesh open at knuckles, and do even much worse. Even with basic gloves, impact can impart a lot of trauma to fingers and wrists. It is subjective, but 2 lbs seems to be a lot gentler on impacts. I figure some might say I am being a wimp about this. Sparring is supposed to be done with restraint and control. Unfortunately, beginners usually have not fully developed this control. I look at it as if having a severely bruised knuckle (one person actually broke a knuckle elsewhere using a home made padded sword, and was out of practice for months) actually inhibits training. Just within these few bouts shown in the videos, there were a couple of instances where the defeated was shaking their hand, expressing the discomfort. Given frequent exposure and more intense sparring, the results will eventually be more severe. For those sparring in harness, I would advocate a full 3 pound simulated longsword though.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hehe, well I spar in SCA in MINIUM armor (gloves, knee, elbow, kidney belt, neck and helmet) using rattan full weight practice swords. Then again, I have a pretty high pain tresh hold Razz . Of course I did end up with bloody lungs once...so I wouldn't recommend this per say.

As far as boffer weapons goes, Yeah I noticed 2 lbs being a good thresh hold as well unless your willing to use hockey helmets and gloves at the very least. And like I said, those dense foam LARP swords do work really well also.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We use light contact steel, which works fine most of the time.

Fighting looks fun, but quite a few of the fighters strike me as somewhat uhm, unreflected.
Take the two weapon fighters, for instance. They consequently fail to defend their center line, and you hit them over the head time and time again. Wouldn't it make sense to lead with one weapon instead? Or at least vary when they get killed?

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A good sword and shield fighter would have won the tourney hands down. That's my feeling. Happy

P. Cha wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
Thanks. I have been training seriously for maybe 6 to 7 years, but had been messing around with swords for a lot longer than that. Unfortunately there was no historical western swordsmanship instructor in Hong Kong so I had to work on it myself and took quite a long time to achieve so little.


So how do you feel about a shield? hehe. Proper sword and shield use at something like that tourney seems almost wrong...almost Happy .

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Dec, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
We use light contact steel, which works fine most of the time.

Fighting looks fun, but quite a few of the fighters strike me as somewhat uhm, unreflected.
Take the two weapon fighters, for instance. They consequently fail to defend their center line, and you hit them over the head time and time again. Wouldn't it make sense to lead with one weapon instead? Or at least vary when they get killed?


Hheheheh there's something the videos didn't tell. Lateral movements are hard to tell from a sideway camera. In the later half of the second video where the camera was facing me almost directly, it is noticible that there were a lot more lateral movement than when the camera was position at the side.

When I started to beat that twin katana guy, it was schielhau that I was using against his leading weapon and I put it in ochs position to intercept his incoming weapon as well, which worked many times. I was on his side with my sword going to him from outside to the center, so whether his centerline was well defended or not was not a factor. And I wasn't moving a lot to the side to the degree that he would have notice and rotate himself to face me directly. I only did enough to make the schielhau worked.

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Anders Nilsson




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We sparr using weighted shianii, hockey gloves and helmet. We only use T-shirt a bode protection. That way we train to keep away.

When we started we used steel but after i cut a nerve in my thumb we quit using those in sparring.

Against kamikazez I like to use thusts, when they swing I thrust them in the face, then they usually quit charging me.

When using a longsword vs sword and shiled I like to mix in some halfswording when I enter krieg. It´s quite fun fighting longsword vs sword and shield. Me and Elling had some nice bouts at Swordfish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls8uuUKgKNM

Here are some clips from some of my bouts. This is most gritty hits, since I like to use pommels and such, no real clean cuts in these clips.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Nilsson wrote:

When using a longsword vs sword and shiled I like to mix in some halfswording when I enter krieg. It´s quite fun fighting longsword vs sword and shield. Me and Elling had some nice bouts at Swordfish.


Should be mentioned that I'm not used to punching at all, and hate shinai with a passion, being used to steel. (you can't bind or deflect propperyly, damned it...) :P
and, that was a buckler, these are shield
http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Elling...CN3256.flv
(this is the first time we try fencing masks and shields, so we are not all that advanced. Weapons are blunt steel)

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Anders Nilsson




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Jan, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Anders Nilsson wrote:

When using a longsword vs sword and shiled I like to mix in some halfswording when I enter krieg. It´s quite fun fighting longsword vs sword and shield. Me and Elling had some nice bouts at Swordfish.


Should be mentioned that I'm not used to punching at all, and hate shinai with a passion, being used to steel. (you can't bind or deflect propperyly, damned it...) :P
and, that was a buckler, these are shield
http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Elling...CN3256.flv
(this is the first time we try fencing masks and shields, so we are not all that advanced. Weapons are blunt steel)


You´re right. We used bucklers in the bouts. It was in the reenctment fight we used shields. Mixed up what we used.
It was still fun thou.
I agree that Shinaii don´t behave like swords, but cinsidering the risk of injury I use them in sparring. Have ordered a Liecthenuer thou, I´ll see how it works.
I noted that you where not used to punching, got you with one if I remember correctly. But you are not at all bad. You beat up Martin bearstrangler in pugilism. You are fast and got fast hands.
We use lots of hand to hand technincs when we train in our group and as an old Thaiboxer I like it. Liecthenuer said to close in and wrestle well, and I think that it works.


Last edited by Anders Nilsson on Thu 03 Jan, 2008 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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