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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: The medieval village         Reply with quote

Trying to figure out how the whole manorial system fits together. If I am a lord with a manor, exactly how many villages do I take charge of on my land? Is it normally just one, or can there be more?

M.

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It depends on how big a Lord you are. You might be a country squire in England with a single village and manor or you might be Edguaerd de Coucey (I'm currently reading a book about him) with multiple castles and estates and numerous villages in both France and England.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I meant more if I am in charge of a single manor. Is it a one to one ratio? I assume so but could be wrong.

M.

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think there's a single definitive answer. A manor might have a single village associated with it or more than one... or even none at all in especially in later periods.
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Geoff Wood




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This link might be helpful.
http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture22b.html
Geoff
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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

when manorialism was broken down for me my professor said that traditionally there would be one village to a manor, but sometimes two manors might share a single village. i hope this helps
(this came up while discussing 'custom of the manor' not size)
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't forget not all medieval villages had a lord at all, contrary to what they taught us in high school. Some were owned / governed by local monasteries (making the Abbot or in some cases, Abess the landlord) quite a few were owned by nearby cities, and a fair number were owned by ... themselves. Sometimes they even formed little leagues with neighboring villages and took on anyone who showed up to make 'em pay taxes. That is how the Swiss Confederacy was born.

We think of medieval times as this very neat hierarchy of the king, the lords, the knights, and the serfs toiling away in the fields, with the church overlooking everything from behind stained glass Cathedral windows. Usually it was much more complex. Quite a few medieval cities were self governing city-states. Look up the history of Cologne some time, they actually fought a war against their own Archbishop, and eventually won their freedom. You also had confederacies like the Swiss, aristocratic Republics like Venice, and of course, entire regions overrun by gangs of pirates and brigands such as the Victual Brothers up in Frisia, or even more wild pagan Tribal bands like the Vikings. Then you have the Mercenary companies roaming around like the Catalan Grand Company, or Condottieri like the infamous Sir John Hawkwoods in Italy.

A few links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victual_Brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne#Middle_Ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_the_Old_Swiss_Confederacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hawkwood

Bottom line, Medieval Europe was a complex place, hard to summarize it all neatly as they did for us in school. If you want to get a grasp of it, you'll be doing a lot of reading. But on the up side, it's a good read Happy

BD

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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, the page you should probably be looking for is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manorialism
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Complex indeed. I was more searching for a norm but there doesn't seem to be one, which is good.

I'm actually doing this for A) personal knowledge, and B) Modding a village into the game Oblivion that "correctly" shows a medieval manor. I'm doing the one village / one manor display, albeit it is a large village.

M.

EDIT:

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Actually, the page you should probably be looking for is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manorialism


Read that actually, not a bad read, though it's more of an overview than a specific time period IIRC.

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Robin Palmer




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PostPosted: Mon 24 Dec, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One point to be remembered is how small villages were in medievel time even large towns would be hard pressed to reach 10,000 people. I used to live in a village called Thundersly in Essex UK today it has a population of about 2500 people. In the doomsday book dateing from 1086 it is listed as.

Swein holds Thundersly in lordship, which Godric, a Kings thane, held before 1066 as one manor for five hides and 15 acres.
Always two ploughs in lordship two mens ploughs.
5 villagers five smallholders. four slaves now two.
Pasture, 200 sheep; woodland, 50 pigs. Then two cobs seven cattle sixteen pigs 200 sheep and two bee hives.
Now three cobs and one cob 14 cattle 36 pigs 200 sheep two bee hives.
Value then 102 shillings now 100 shillings.

It should be noted that Thundersly was in fact a very rich manor. Chingford had a value of 10 shillings, Dunton 3, BluntsHall 10 shillings, Wheatley 4, Chishill 4,Hedingham 60 shillings. The old pound had twenty shillings to the pound for some reason some of Wiliams people showed tax in pounds others in shillings.
Many of those shown return as little as ten shillings hamlets of ten or so people a lot did'nt get much bigger for centurys.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 27 Dec, 2007 11:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
B) Modding a village into the game Oblivion that "correctly" shows a medieval manor. I'm doing the one village / one manor display, albeit it is a large village.


Well, if you're wondering whether that's realistic or not, I guess there had to be some places where the village's boundaries did coincide with the manor's. And of course, your comment about the Wikipedia article being a generic overview made me wonder about whether you already have a specific location and time period in mind. If so, then don't be shy. Mention it. It'll make our job of looking for relevant resources a whole lot easier.

In the meantime, maybe you could check the ORB ( http://the-orb.net/ ), the Internet Medieval Sourcebook ( http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html ), or Martha Carlin's medieval resources page ( http://www.uwm.edu/~carlin/ ).
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