Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 5:03 am    Post subject: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

Is the British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre similar to the sabre carried by the Prussian Army Marshal Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher?


Last edited by Shahril Dzulkifli on Sun 30 Dec, 2007 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Prussian M1811 "Blucher" saber is a copy the P1796 LC sword. The M1811 is often mistaken for the P1796. The hilt on the M1811 is a bit beefier and can often have extensive regimental markings in the cross guard. Also, the scabbard drag on the M1811 is angular and projects further from the scabbard than does the very minimal drag that is found on the P1796. See the attached photos for a comparison of the scabbard drags.

Jonathan



 Attachment: 14.26 KB
drag1.jpg
Prussian M1811

 Attachment: 36 KB
drag2.jpg
British P1796
View user's profile Send private message
Dan P




Location: Massachusetts, USA
Joined: 28 Jun 2007

Posts: 208

PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The statue of Blucher in Rostock depicts him holding a sword that highly resembles the 1796.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Blucherstatue.JPG
Since he was an active Hussar for most of his career, it seems reasonable that Blucher would opt to keep carrying the practical and effective light cavalry saber even as a field marshal rather than use a more ornate and delicate "officer style" sword. Of course he might have had more than one type of sword, for all those dress uniform occasions.
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most British cavalry officers of the period would have owned at least two swords: one for active service and one for dress. The mameluke hilt was fashionable for dress for light cavalry officers, whereas the heavy cavalry officers carried a regulation dress sword, the Pattern 1796 Heavy Cavalry Officer's Dress Sword.

1796 Heavy Cavalry Dress Sword
View user's profile Send private message
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

So this is how the Prussian M1811 Blücher sabre looks like:



Last edited by Shahril Dzulkifli on Sun 30 Dec, 2007 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shahril,
That is probably a similar sword from another German state, or a variant of the M1811. This is the Prussian M1811 Blucher Sabel:

View user's profile Send private message
Peter G.




Location: Bad Kreuznach/Germany
Joined: 16 Nov 2007

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
So this is how the Prussian M1811 Blücher sabre looks like:



Nope, not really--but close.

The hilt is not the typical M1811-yours has long rectagonal langets-the M1811 has semicircular.
The blade is ok-as far as i can see on the pic.
The scabbardbands are to broad for the Bluecher.

Looks like a private/militia variant.
The hilt looks very like some saxonian models-but in my books about saxonion this variant is not shown.

If you are interested in the Bluecher get the very good book about it "Der Blücher-
Säbel" by Seifert/Stefanski (12.50euros) its german-but as you wear a Bayern Muenchen T-shirt i guess you are german yourself ;-).

If you live close to Mainz just send a note-come over and have a look at the originals.

Peter


Last edited by Peter G. on Fri 21 Dec, 2007 1:44 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

To be exact, here is a copy of the Prussian M1811 Blücher Sabre from me:

Peter,
The person in the Bayern Munich jersey who appears in my avatar wasn't actually me. That is the German soccer star Miroslav Klose. I am from Malaysia, not Germany.
View user's profile Send private message
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

What do I have here is another British Light Cavalry P1796 Sword and it shows no markings on both the sword itself or the scabbard. Traces of leather wrap remain on the grip with no wire. There are several nicks in the blade, otherwise in very good condition. This sword was used during the Napoleonic Wars a decade later.


Last edited by Shahril Dzulkifli on Sun 02 Mar, 2008 5:25 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
D Critchley




Location: UK
Joined: 24 Jan 2007

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
Traces of leather wrap remain on the grip with no wire.


There's no wire because it's clearly a trooper's sword not that of an officer

Most " Blucher" sabres used before 1815 were in fact imported 1796s. Britain sent thousands to Portugal, Prussia and Sweden, along with 1804 cutlasses.
Prussia only started manufacturing her own heavier hilted variant in any numbers in the 1820s

David C

"The purpose of the cavalry on the battlefield is to give tone to an event that otherwise might be considered a common brawl"
View user's profile Send private message
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Sun 24 Feb, 2008 4:08 am    Post subject: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

One more British P1796 Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre from me, reproduced in 1810. It is a nice example, if somewhat overcleaned, of its type, marked 'Dawes Birmingham' at forte with the inspector's stamp of a crown over the number 6. This stamp changed its format circa 1820 to a three-part stamp which included a letter indicating where the inspection had taken place.


Last edited by Shahril Dzulkifli on Sun 02 Mar, 2008 5:24 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Hopkins wrote:
Most British cavalry officers of the period would have owned at least two swords: one for active service and one for dress. The mameluke hilt was fashionable for dress for light cavalry officers, whereas the heavy cavalry officers carried a regulation dress sword, the Pattern 1796 Heavy Cavalry Officer's Dress Sword.

1796 Heavy Cavalry Dress Sword



Good lord, I used to have that sword! (1796 Heavy Cavalry Dress Sword) Sigh, it was pristeen! Nice copper hilt and wire on the grip still tight. They go on E-bay now for about 2 grand! But I traded it for a nice rapier. I still wish I had it back though.
On another note, I found some interesting images of a 1796 Light Cav Saber. It seems slightly different however, the very curved blade is canted more foward from the hilt it seems to me. Its listed as a "1796 Flank Officer sword"
View user's profile Send private message
Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmph! Heres another image that didnt go thru.


 Attachment: 67.48 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan,
These were often carried by officers of flank companies and by light infantry and rifle officers. They fancied themselves to be different and elite and many officers wore sabers that were similar to light cavalry/hussars swords. The saber you have posted is an example of such a sword. These were not ever a regulation pattern, but can be said to be in the style of the 1796 light cavalry sword. The Pattern 1803 Infantry Officer's Sword was the regulation sword for flank and light infantry officers.

Jonathan

Pattern 1803:
View user's profile Send private message
Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This picture you've put up reminds me of an 18/ cen. hussar officers saber that someone has for sale here in my home town. Its 850.00 without the scabbard. The ivory grip is a bit loose but it looks very much the same as the one above. The blade on the one I am referring to, has the George the 3rd/ "beehive" chisled on the blade. Hmm. I wonder if its a "flank officer" sword as well. Definately a custom hilt that an officer had made for himself. Beautiful pic!
View user's profile Send private message
Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a matter of fact, the dealer had two swords originally, one with a ray-skin grip that sold earlier just like that pic, so in fact I believe the sword I was talking about is the same one! It had a lionshead just like that. The blade had engraving however and a nice yellowed ivory grip. Very Interesting! I'll have to see about a layaway plan.
View user's profile Send private message
Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Wed 19 Mar, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote





Here is a good 1796 Pattern British Light Cavalry Trooper's sword with a curved, single-edged 32 1/2 inch blade with a broad fuller. The blade is marked on the spine with the maker's name Woolley & Deakin (the name is also engraved on the scabbard.) The sword has a regulation stirrup hilt with a ribbed leather-covered grip. It is contained in its original steel scabbard. A classic sword from the Waterloo period.
View user's profile Send private message
D. Jaya-Ratnam




Location: London
Joined: 02 Jan 2009

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan, 2009 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
So this is how the Prussian M1811 Blücher sabre looks like:



Dear Shahril...this is actually a model 1748 Hungarian hussar saber, distinguishable by the protrusians on the scabbard shoe and the shape of the stirrup hilt. It was replaced in 1769 by the model 1768 sword (similar but the hilt had backpiece "ears" which were copied for the British 1796).

Out of interest, would you consider selling this sword?

Best wishes

Darrell
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
D. Jaya-Ratnam




Location: London
Joined: 02 Jan 2009

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan, 2009 4:10 am    Post subject: Re: British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre         Reply with quote

D. Jaya-Ratnam wrote:
Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
So this is how the Prussian M1811 Blücher sabre looks like:



Dear Shahril...this is actually a model 1748 Hungarian hussar saber, distinguishable by the protrusians on the scabbard shoe and the shape of the stirrup hilt. It was replaced in 1769 by the model 1768 sword (similar but the hilt had backpiece "ears" which were copied for the British 1796).

Out of interest, would you consider selling this sword?

Best wishes

Darrell


Sorry...I've just noticed that your sword does have the "backpiece ears"! This makes it a 1768/69 sword. It was replaced in 1803. Apologies
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Simon P





Joined: 18 Jan 2009

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun 18 Jan, 2009 7:38 am    Post subject: Another Blucher Saber - advice reqested.         Reply with quote

This is a picture of a sword I found in my attic. It looks very much like the ones discussed in this thread a British 1796 Blucher saber?

The sword is in poor - but original condition and the bit that you hold seems to have rotted away.

The scabbard is rusty but the blade is still frighteningly sharp.

Does anybody know how best to clean / preserve the sword and scabbard? Is it worth having the handle restored or is it best kept in its 'found' condition.

Simon



 Attachment: 86.89 KB
Sword and Scabbard [ Download ]

 Attachment: 68.57 KB
Handle [ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Trooper's Sabre
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum