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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Scale helmet.         Reply with quote

Here's something interesting (several things, actually). Note the scale helmet. I assume the scales are attached to a padded leather cap, but this helmet certainly wouldn't do much to absorb shock. Interesting....

German, ca. 1517.



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Weird indeed. What's the original work?

Protection wise, I think it would prevent your head from being sliced open. Impact wise I'd assume he'd have some sort of wool under the leather cap.

M.

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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean theres a picture of one in the originals armour gallery at the bottom right hand corner of page 7 and the top left hand corner of page 8. I see these from time to time in period art and have always thought they were a neat practicle way to put some rudimentary protection on the heads of poorer soldiers.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is another 14th century one with pictures of sclae helmets. They seem to have been around for some time. My guess is only the humblest of the poor would have them.

Rope helmets likely even cheaper.

RPM



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S. Mighton





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for pointing that out Allan. Can anyone venture a guess as to the construction of this piece? Also does one of the mods know the place and time of origin?


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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 4:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My guess is that it is near eastern. I am not sure though but is has a number of eastern characteristics and I think I have seen one like it before with an origin of turkey. Sorry I cannot offer mor help.

RPM
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the first battles between hungarians and ottomans, 1360's. Italian work.

Zoltán



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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you know something more about that battle? I'm interested in it because it could have been fought somewhere near Croatia, and Croatians probably fought with Hungarians against the Turks as they had later...
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure this would denote poverty. We tend to assume that the wealthy would have the most protective armour, but there are plenty of examples in contemporary art which suggest that high-ranking soldiers sometimes simply chose, say, an open-face helmet over a visored one. Maybe this style was preferred by those who valued peripheral vision and range of motion over the better protection of plate. Hard to say. Also, the style shown here may have been considered more upscale (oops, sorry about that) than the simple one-piece bowls of similar shape often worn by German mercenaries at the time. The scale helmet might actually require more time in manufacture. Each of those plates would have to be cut, shaped, polished, pierced and sewn/riveted. If I had raising skill, I think I'd prefer to raise a simple bowl. But maybe that's the point--any of us could make a scale helmet whereas very few of us could raise a single-piece bowl.

In favor of the scale=low rent equation is that this group is from a crucifixion triptych, and the convention seems to have been to show crude infantrymen gambling or fighting over Christ's garments while higher-ranking soldiers and officers stand around the crosses.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Tue 20 Nov, 2007 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the attribution/provenance information:

Kunstwerk: Malerei-Holz ; Einrichtung sakral ; Flügelaltar-Sonntagsseite ; Apt Ulrich der Jüngere (1512-1520 nachweisbar)
Dokumentation: 1517 ; 1517 ; Augsburg ; Deutschland ; Schwaben ; Staatsgalerie im Schaezlerpalais ; 5349-5351
Anmerkungen: Rehlingeraltar ; "Altdeutsche Gemälde" der Staatsgalerie Augsburg (Ausst.Kat.), Bd. 1, München 1988, S. 13-17

So, it's by Ulrich the Younger.

Here's a higher-res view:



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That type of helmet construction seems quite popular, I have seen it on many paintings by now. This one is a fresco of Saint George from Slovenia 1430 - 40:



The picture Henrik Zoltan Toth posted above is the Master of the St Lambrecht Votive Altarpiece, I have seen the original several weeks ago in Alte Galerie in Eggenberg castle in Graz (amazing collection). It was made for a church in Styria, Austria at around 1430. It shows a legend that Louis the Great of Anjou, king of Hungary (1342 – 1382) won the battle against Turks in 1377. According to historians, he never led a single battle against Turks, and it’s supposed to be purely a legend (seems a bit weird to me). The kneeling lady is the Hedwig (later queen of Poland), youngest daughter of king Louis (who is depicted on a white horse).


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

:-) A south german master would had been my other choice, but I remembered on an italian..
Thanks;-)

Louis led an army agains Bulgary in 1377, and the hungarians surprisingly met a little ottoman army and defeated it.
(Gyula Kristó: Wars of the Anjou era)

After the hungarian rules/habits in wars (especially mentioned in Matteo Villani's chronicle) every hungarian baron (even f.e. the slavonian and croatian ban) had had to follow with his banderium (his own force/artmy) the king into the war.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is curiose that Louis had always a large number of hungarian kumans (kipchacs, who were settled into hungary after the mongol attacks in 1241-42) in his armies, who looked almost the same like the ottoman soldiers in the painting.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean,

The reason I assume poor infantry is every single scale helmet is on a guy wearing little to now armour. Until Blaz posted that last picture I'd never have assumed anyone of any wealth would wear one. That picture seems to show a fairly well equiped gent with one. My guess is still mostly common by infantry and the less wealthy, just like rope helmets and leather ones... all tend to be shown for the most part on the less equipped or not equipped.

RPM
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry, the war led by the king against Muntinia and bulgaria was in 1368. In 1377 he fought in Litvania.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Sean,

The reason I assume poor infantry is every single scale helmet is on a guy wearing little to now armour. Until Blaz posted that last picture I'd never have assumed anyone of any wealth would wear one. That picture seems to show a fairly well equiped gent with one. My guess is still mostly common by infantry and the less wealthy, just like rope helmets and leather ones... all tend to be shown for the most part on the less equipped or not equipped.

RPM


I think that's true. I've just been looking at/for open-face sallets lately, and noted that they're worn by both common infantry and mounted men-at-arms. Could be that infantry used them because they were cheaper and the wealthy used them because they wanted to, albeit with decorative embellishment and perhaps better finish/quality.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Michael Ekelmann




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S. Mighton wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out Allan. Can anyone venture a guess as to the construction of this piece? Also does one of the mods know the place and time of origin?


I'm not a mod, but it looks like a Polish jazeran or karacena (sp) helmet to go with a suit of hussar armour like shown below. Talking with some of the Hussar reenactors on the web, this is higher end armour, representing more labour costs then the munitions grade szyszak and anime breastplate that most Hussars wore.



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1683%20hussar%20karacena.jpg


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Folkert van Wijk




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Nov, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

...just to put things in perspective, look at this pretty Greek 500/360 BC, helmet from Manning Imperial.



And look here for the other (inside) pics...
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=56

In other wordts nothing new under de sun...

A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…

I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Nov, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would have said near / middle east. I've seen several pictures of Musilm mounted troops wearing armour made of round scales.

M.

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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Fri 23 Nov, 2007 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More pics of scale helmets

http://www.mkidn.gov.pl/kolekcje/en/okres_zab...amp;idd=24
http://www.mkidn.gov.pl/kolekcje/en/dzielo_od...ecie=12588

Enjoy

Danny
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