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A. Jake Storey II




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Nov, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Cut-and-thrust sword-blades         Reply with quote

I’ve been looking at some “Cut-and-thrust” swords recently. I’ve been shocked at how narrow the last third of the sword is. I know it needs to be fairly narrow for thrusting but many of these swords seem to be just a rapier with a little more metal then needed(I know that there are many types of rapiers, in this case I’m talking about what most people think of when they hear rapier... The Three Musketeers). Though I don’t know much about swords, it would seem like a real “Cut-and-Thrust” would have a blade ore like an XVIIIb. When I see Albion's Regent I think: “their is a sword that can do it all.” I may be completely wrong but I was wondering if any of you had thought this way about a C&T sword and an XVIIIb blade.
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David Lohnes




Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Nov, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I've been similarly surprised.

In looking around for swords suitable for use with George Silver's Paradoxes (purely out of curiosity), I've been surprised to see that everything which seems long enough according to Silver's guidelines (36" blade or so) seems either to lack the necessary cutting heft (given his appreciation for the cut) or else the kind of hand-protecting hilt he demands. I've seen swords with one or the other, but not both.

I don't really know anything about all this, so I'll be interested to see what others have to say.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Nov, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Lohnes wrote:
Yes, I've been similarly surprised.

In looking around for swords suitable for use with George Silver's Paradoxes (purely out of curiosity), I've been surprised to see that everything which seems long enough according to Silver's guidelines (36" blade or so) seems either to lack the necessary cutting heft (given his appreciation for the cut) or else the kind of hand-protecting hilt he demands. I've seen swords with one or the other, but not both.

I don't really know anything about all this, so I'll be interested to see what others have to say.


Well maybe this one by A & A : http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapier121.html

The blade is long enough and definitely a capable cutting sword and it does have hand protection.

Other contemporary types like in the basket hilt / backsword / schiavona families should be looked at and not only those with " rapier " type hilts. ( Not getting into the argument about what qualifies as a " true " rapier: There is already a long topic thread discussion this if you do a search here on the forum 0.

Oh, the comparison tool can give some idea about these next to each other: http://www.myArmoury.com/compare.html
The tool is out of date in not having more recent production swords shown, but still helpful. Wink Laughing Out Loud

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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Nov, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi!

There is book you may find helpful. It's written by John Clements of the ARMA titled " Renaissance Swortdsmanship" and addresses differences between the "cut and thrust" and the rapier. It's published by Paladin Press and I bought my copy from Amazon. It offers some insightful interpretations on the developement and use of rapiers, small swords, and cut and thrust swords. I like the Regent, too. Albion indicates it was designed more as a long sword, and from what I've read on this forum, it's a very good cutter and thruster as well. Several far more knowledgable forumites could help you with this as well. Clements tends to confirm your conclusions. Hope this helps.

Cheers!

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Nov, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
FYI, the term "cut and thrust" sword is the term for a much later period style of sword. It is incorrectly applied to Rennaisance weapons. A slightly more accurate term is edge sword/spada da filo, though truthfully these were primarily just referred to as swords in period.

But when looking for any cutting weapons from the time period, you will find a wide variety of blade types, from broad bladed to narrow, needle-like points. Just as in other time periods, there is no one standard type of blade.

Here're a few from the albums on this site. There are others as well.

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1097.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/4207.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1287.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/4210.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/881.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/833.html

Hi R.D.,

Quote:
There is book you may find helpful. It's written by John Clements of the ARMA titled " Renaissance Swortdsmanship" and addresses differences between the "cut and thrust" and the rapier.


Unfortunately, while the book was very well intentioned, it is very out of date. Much of the information in the book is factually incorrect, and almost all of the techniques are based on pure conjecture. This isn't meant as an affront to the author, John Clements. It's just that at the time he wrote it there wasn't a lot of information available, and he was trying to show that such martial arts existed without the luxury of the translated texts that are publically available today. It was definately a trailblazer for it's time, but unfortunately today it has more myths than facts in it.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Nov, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Bill! This is one of the things I love about this forum. Well, edit..select all...delete- and back to the book shelf!
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


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PostPosted: Sat 17 Nov, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R D Moore wrote:
Thank you, Bill! This is one of the things I love about this forum. Well, edit..select all...delete- and back to the book shelf!


No problem! Happy

And to John Clements' credit, at the time that book was written, my own abilities and knowledge in Renaissance martial arts DEFINATELY weren't anything to brag about! Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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