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Peter Cowan




Location: Nelson,British Columbia,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Nov, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Ordering Flails in Canada         Reply with quote

I just tried to order a German Flail from Arms & Armour and found out I can't import it to Canada. I was really looking forward to this piece and I can't find anything like it in Canada. Has anybody else run into this problem and if so are there any solutions?
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Nov, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Ordering Flails in Canada         Reply with quote

Peter Cowan wrote:
I just tried to order a German Flail from Arms & Armour and found out I can't import it to Canada. I was really looking forward to this piece and I can't find anything like it in Canada. Has anybody else run into this problem and if so are there any solutions?


Not really as it's a prohibited weapon just go for a mace instead, maybe, if that is any consolation.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jason Daub




Location: Peace River, Alberta
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Nov, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,
As Jean just said, there is no way around it, under the Criminal Code Section 84.1 it is listed as a prohibited weapon. The actual definition is this; The device commonly known as "morning star" and any similar device consisting of metal or other heavy material, studded with spikes and connected to a handle by a length of chain, rope or other flexible material.
If you feel the need to crush something try the gothic mace, it's great fun.

'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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Peter Cowan




Location: Nelson,British Columbia,Canada
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 96

PostPosted: Thu 01 Nov, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: german flail         Reply with quote

Thanks gentlemen, I must plead guilty to ignorance of the law. Well thats that and I will take your advice and get a mace.
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Andy Bain




Location: Surrey, BC, Canada
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One further note. I asked a customs officer one time if there was any way to get an exemption to this as a collector. If I'm not mistaken there are a few ways around some restrictions when it comes to firearms. But he said that there isn't anyway around items listed as prohibited. So unfortunately that is that.
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 6:39 am    Post subject: Restrictive imports         Reply with quote

Sadly I have not found a way around this other than shipping to a US address and the person taking it across the border as personal property. The law, like so many that try to regulate items, was designed to limit behavior. Which logically does little to do so but looks great on the books. i.e. "look what we stopped from happening" This type of restriction will often result from a specific incident or series of incidents and not really address the reason for its occurrence or in fact the underlying issues that create the reason.

The Australian and Scottish collectors and practioners of WMA have been struggling with legislative mentality along these lines for a while.

I always think the best way to counter this is education, responsible ownership and illustration of the personal integrity that was and I feel should be emphasized in most traditions of WMA. (not to exclude other martial traditions, but I am trying not to start one of those ranting cycles of posts this issue can bring forth) Thus I think a positive and informative discourse is the only way to counter the call for restrictions on items as opposed to unacceptable behavior in society.

Best
Craig
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason Daub wrote:
Peter,
As Jean just said, there is no way around it, under the Criminal Code Section 84.1 it is listed as a prohibited weapon. The actual definition is this; The device commonly known as "morning star" and any similar device consisting of metal or other heavy material, studded with spikes and connected to a handle by a length of chain, rope or other flexible material.
If you feel the need to crush something try the gothic mace, it's great fun.


Not to get cute with the law, but....if a flail doesn't have spikes, is it still banned by this law? The language used is "...consisting of..." followed by the list of traits that define the banned object. But not all flails have spiked heads, and, frankly, I'd rather have a long-hafted military flail with a plain head than a short one with a spiked ball. And, of course, one can easily make a flail of the type shown below. And, of course, it's really just an outmoded agricultural implement that happens to have been adopted for use in war, as the American baseball bat has been adopted by some British thugs for violent purposes. So, does Canadian law allow one to make and own an agricultural flail? It's so large it is in no way concealable or convenient for illegal use. It has no spikes, and therefore does not match the object prohibited by the law. It's a curiosity, nothing more.

FWIW, I'll be happy to testify on your behalf at trial. Big Grin



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Fri 02 Nov, 2007 8:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Judging only by what is written in the law, even this would be legal, since there are no spikes. Anyway, maybe you should just get the mace or, better yet, have A&A make you one of their godendags.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Fri 02 Nov, 2007 8:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And although the law might cover anything that technically is a flail, the godendag and morgenstern are in no way flail-like, in spite of their spikes. The law doesn't ban spikes. Rather, it bans spikes in combination with the other traits of a flail.

Best of all, these munition-grade weapons are even easier to make than a flail because they have no articulation. See? These are all sugar-&-spice compared to a short flail. Wink Hmmmph....I'd sooner take my chances against a short flail, but then I'm not a Canadian legislator.



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm, apparently I have an illegal weapon then, since I had no problem importing my low quality flail from the UK into Canada. I can appreciate their sentiment given how dangerous flails can be, but honestly, not many people are going to use them as a weapon in a violent crime, and there are a lot of other legally available weapons that are just as effective .
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Bob Hir





Joined: 01 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wonder what would happen if it came, perhaps, disassembled, Ball in one package, the rest in the other...
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Hir wrote:
wonder what would happen if it came, perhaps, disassembled, Ball in one package, the rest in the other...


To answer a few questions the law also deals with nunchuks ( spelling ?) and flails got added to the list of prohibited items.

Probably some bureaucrat getting scared by seeing a Bruce Lee movie in 1975 ! Oh, and some adolescents carrying them around at the time. Genuine antiques and quality reproductions got included with no sensible exceptions put into the law/regulation.

The way the law is written one could take two long C battery maglights and if one tied together the butt caps wrist straps one would go from two legal maglights to an illegal nunchuck in 5 seconds. Eek!

Every time I go to the local hardware store ( Canadian Tire ) I see numerous objects that could be combined into flails in only seconds and turned back to " legal " tools just as fast. Razz Laughing Out Loud

Anyway, avoiding politics ( mostly ): " It doesn't have to make sense, IT's THE LAW " !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jason Daub




Location: Peace River, Alberta
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nope, sorry, there's no way around this one. The former Prohibited Weapons Orders were all incorporated into the Criminal Code, they are all available to see at Canadian Legal Information Institute online. If you look at the schedule of prohibited weapons they have listed,any of the jointed weapons are prohibited eg. "Any instrument or device commonly known as 'nunchaku', being hard non-flexible sticks,clubs, pipes, or rods linked by a length or lengths of rope, cord, wire or chain,(here's the key phrase) and any similar instrument or device"

The funny thing is if you read the whole thing you will find out that every 14 year old boy in Canada who was let alone in the sheet metal shop during shop class is a felon. If I remember correctly I think every guy made throwing stars with the sheet metal shears as soon as the shop teachers' back was turned and then tried to hit the cork board across the room with them when no-one was looking(or maybe that was just us?) "Any instrument or device commonly known as 'shuriken', being a hard non-flexible plate having three or more radiating points with one or more sharp edges in the shape of a polygon, cross, star, diamond or other geometric shape, and any similar instrument or device"

On a much more serious note the terrible thing for us up here is that the prohibited list is subject to what is called IIRC an "order in council" which means that weapons can be added to the list at the whim of the Minister with no public debate, if, as Jean said, perhaps half-jokingly, someone was scared by a Bruce Lee movie that would explain all of the Oriental weapons being on the list.. So be careful out there boys and girls, too much bad press in Canada could cost us our hobby in a fit of "getting tough on crime" and "why would any reasonable person want a home full of deadly weapons" enthusiasm.

'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject: Restrictions         Reply with quote

As I was informed by a Mounty (not sure what weight that carries these days). This was on imported items. I think a Canadian could maunfacture them and sell them in country but that is not a legal analysis just what I was told by the fellow who sent me a copy of the law.

Craig

PS Note of interest, Jean, as a representative can add an item can the delete one as well?? No hope here just interested in the process.
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Jason Daub




Location: Peace River, Alberta
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You shouldn't be able to get anything like that past the border services. As for building one of them here and displaying or using it it wouldn't be wise thing to do. If any law enforcement officer decided to be sticky about it you would be in a lot of trouble, IIRC the penalty for possesion of a prohibited weapon is a maximum of two years in the slammer, and that is without anything else that may be thrown at you.

It's funny that these are considered by the law to be the same as a hand grenade or a RPG, but that's the way it is. As for changing the restrictions, I just don't think that it's going to happen. After all, when was the last time you saw a weapon of any type decriminalized?

'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Restrictions         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
As I was informed by a Mounty (not sure what weight that carries these days). This was on imported items. I think a Canadian could maunfacture them and sell them in country but that is not a legal analysis just what I was told by the fellow who sent me a copy of the law.

Craig

PS Note of interest, Jean, as a representative can add an item can the delete one as well?? No hope here just interested in the process.


Well, the Mounty was wrong with that advice. Eek! Shocking to think that a law enforcement officer could misunderstand the law like that ! Well, the law can be confusing at times and if " that " Mounty's is not a weapons enforcement expert he probably was just saying what sounded logical/practical to him. ( Honest mistake I think, but saying " the Mounty told me it was O.K. " would have very little weight in court ! ).

I think if one asks many LEOs about stuff like this one can get many different answers. ( Some of them wrong ! Eek! ).

Oh, and stuff could be taken off the lists in theory but even a politician who wanted to or thought it made no sense to keep some things prohibited would be worried about the optics !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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