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Jason C. D.




Location: ON, Canada
Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Beginning Rapier Fencing         Reply with quote

Hello everyone, I was wondering if someone could direct me to some essential reading about Rapier fencing as a martial art. Finding a group or organization involved in this practice would be pretty much non-existent for me, in my area. I WOULD have a training partner but need at least a basic introduction to the art. Are there any in english, that are also accurate and thorough? translations maybe...
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Martin Wilkinson





Joined: 05 Mar 2006

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check out Chivalry Bookshelf, they have a couple of titles that are exactly the kind of thing you are after.
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."

Schola Gladiatoria
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James Holczer




Location: Central New Jersey
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I highly recommend Tom Leoni’s translation of Salvatore Fabris 1606 treatise “The Art of Dueling” this is an incredible work that will give the average practitioner a lifetime of study. Also visit the Order of the Seven Hearts website, visit the forum ask questions.

http://www.salvatorfabris.com/Home.shtml

Also you might want to take a look at Jared Kirby’s Capo Ferro translation “Italian Rapier Combat” It’s not as comprehensive as Mr. Leoni’s work, but still very good.

You might also want to get a copy of Maestro Martinez’s instructional videos “La Scherma Italiana” as well they are a big help when trying to understand some of the interpretations within the translated treatises.

http://www.martinez-destreza.com/
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For a basic primer, please check out our article: Call to Arms: Italian Rapier.
Happy

ChadA

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct, 2007 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really want to second James Holczer's suggestion of Tom Leoni's translation of Fabris, as well as the Martinez DVDs. Fabris is one of (if not THE) most comprehensive period treatises on the subject. The theory excellent, and you can apply it to any other Renaissance Italian fencing treatise.

The Martinez DVD's are a nice supplement. They aren't laid out in the most logical progression, and alone they can be a little confusing, but they demonstrate techniques in a helpful way when combined with a text like Fabris. If you don't have the option of learning from someone in person, they will make it easier to visualize what you are attempting to practice.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Jason C. D.




Location: ON, Canada
Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue 09 Oct, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys, more info than I thought I'd recieve. I'll check out all the sources you guys mentioned, Tom Leoni's book looks very interesting, just written in '05 eh. Good thing I'm just getting into it now Wink. Thanks again.
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Tue 09 Oct, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Beginning Rapier Fencing         Reply with quote

Jason C. D. wrote:
Hello everyone, I was wondering if someone could direct me to some essential reading about Rapier fencing as a martial art. Finding a group or organization involved in this practice would be pretty much non-existent for me, in my area. I WOULD have a training partner but need at least a basic introduction to the art. Are there any in english, that are also accurate and thorough? translations maybe...


Jason

Since you live in Ontario (the Southern part I assume) and want to learn rapier as a martial art I highly suggest that you might look into the possibility of attending the ARMA Rapier Seminar that will be held in Appleton, Wisconsin on October 20th, 2007. I'm not sure if the seminar is open to the public but you should be to find that information on the ARMA web site (www.thearma.org).

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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David Schenck




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 25 Oct 2007

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Rapier Fencing         Reply with quote

Hey man, Look not to disrespect Arma or anything however I've been doing fencing for a while and I wouldn't go to Arma for it. I mean their other sword play is great I think it is amazing how they do much of their longsword work however their rapier work doesn't have the right direction. You see they use much of their long sword body technique which works great for longsword, and put it into the rapier which really doesn't work. Their foot work with a rapier resembles much of sport fencing rather than historical fencing. Ramon Martinez isn't my favourite instructor because I tend to do more of the Italian style and his forte is in the spanish, however I would recommend his works for the instruction of fencing over Clements'. If you wish search for Clements' books of rapier online and you can see that there are alot of negative reviews for it. I have fenced member's in Arma before and they are great guys however their technique left much to be desired. Hopefully you'll find what you need for a good base.
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John Clements




Location: Houston
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Rapier Fencing - David S.         Reply with quote

Guy, I’ve never met you or heard of you, and I am quite sure you have never faced any senior ARMA members. Our unmatched skills are viewable online and challengeable in person. They speak for themselves. Where's yours?

If I had a dollar for every time some stranger who has claimed to have fenced my students…

BTW, we have nothing but novices in the entire NJ/NY area who have no had major instruction in 4 years.

John Clements
ARMA Director
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Rapier Fencing - David S.         Reply with quote

John Clements wrote:
Our unmatched skills are viewable online and challengeable in person.


Actually, as far as online viewing is concerned, I'd like to know if I missed some ARMA rapier clips out there. For now what I have seen is two clips on youtube that are tagged rapier but use techniques more focused on cuts, and the group of videos from 99 and earlier on ARMA's website. Neither of these show techniques similar to what I can see in Fabris or in Thibault, which are the two manuals I have access to.

Of course I do not have any demonstrable skill with the weapon, but here's hoping my eyes still work Happy

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jason,

You might want to check out Tom Leoni's excellent article "Getting started in Italian Rapier" in issue 2 of the new magazine Western Martial Arts Illustrated.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
Hi Jason,

You might want to check out Tom Leoni's excellent article "Getting started in Italian Rapier" in issue 2 of the new magazine Western Martial Arts Illustrated.

Cheers
Stephen


That's great advice. The article is excellent.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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David Schenck




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 25 Oct 2007

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Clements, you are correct, you have not heard of me nor have you met me. In all honesty I would say that I doubt that I did face any senior members in your respectable organization. The people I did meet were very talented and friendly and I'm sure that their skills would have made you proud as a teacher. I have seen your videos and found them very educational on the nature of your esteemed group sir. I merely hold and practise a different interpretation of the various fencing sources than you and your group have. As such sir I feel obligated to promote what I feel is a more suitable method than others that are taught, and dare I say not only your methods. But such it would seem is the re-perfectioning of this extinct art and science, of which people such as yourself and myself and others are trying to revitalize. Would not you do the same in a situation, nay sir have you not done already such a thing as I? Is not deferring opionions what caused much of the old texts to be written. That each man had a different view of what should go on with a sword in one's hand? Truly you are proud of your pupils as you ought to be, an honorable man such as yourself. You have inspired others to study and pour over old texts if only because they disagree with you. You are a benefit to this community of historical fencers and whether our views are the same is not nearly as important as the headway we make into the study of this art. Now sir I stand by my assertion of learning a method different than that which I have seen in the videos and from your students, I have no organization comparable to your legacy of ARMA, however I ask you is my opinion a fallacy or do you see my right to view the same art from a standing different than your own.
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 9:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was going to ask if there was an SCA group in the area, but I do not wish to get into any "Who's better" discussion.

The SCA is a friendly group and have their own fencing groups. May not be historical, but it is fun.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Schenck wrote:
Mr. Clements, you are correct, you have not heard of me nor have you met me. In all honesty I would say that I doubt that I did face any senior members in your respectable organization. The people I did meet were very talented and friendly and I'm sure that their skills would have made you proud as a teacher.

Thank you for the honesty in admitting that you have never face John Clements or any other senior level ARMA member in sparring. ARMA is indeed proud of all of its members regardless of their skill levels. However, as you seem to now recognize, beginners cannot be taken as a representation of the skill level found within an organization.

David Schenck wrote:
I merely hold and practise a different interpretation of the various fencing sources than you and your group have. As such sir I feel obligated to promote what I feel is a more suitable method than others that are taught...

Now sir I stand by my assertion of learning a method different than that which I have seen in the videos and from your students, I have no organization comparable to your legacy of ARMA, however I ask you is my opinion a fallacy or do you see my right to view the same art from a standing different than your own.

Like everyone studying WMA you have every right to your interpretations and to believe that your interpretatons are better than all of the others. But does that give you grounds for telling people on a public forum to not take classes with ARMA? Especially in light of the fact that you clearly have no idea of ARMA's interpretations or curricula! ARMA members are always totally astounded that such basic etiquette that is extended to others is so often dropped when speaking of us.

David Schenck wrote:
You have inspired others to study and pour over old texts if only because they disagree with you.

John Clements inspires people because of his research, his interpretations and his ability and his open willingness to put that research into martially sound action. In ARMA there are three phases of research: Translation, Interpretation, and Application. An interpretation is only the half way mark; or to use a modified version of an old saying, "You have talked the talk, now you need to walk the walk". Keep in mind that a large majority of the people studying Renaissance and Medieval martial arts as an actual martial art are currently students of John Clements, we are his students because he does inspire us.

By the way, John Clements has a new book on the history of the rapier that should be coming out this year.



Gary A. Chelette wrote:
I was going to ask if there was an SCA group in the area, but I do not wish to get into any "Who's better" discussion.

The SCA is a friendly group and have their own fencing groups. May not be historical, but it is fun.


Gary

This is not a "Who's better" thread. This thread was started by someone looking for information. While the SCA is not the thing for many on this forum, it may well be for the individual who started this thread. So please do post the name of the group and any contact information that you might have.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Last edited by Randall Pleasant on Tue 05 Feb, 2008 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:

Gary

This is not a "Who's better" thread. This thread was started by someone looking for information. While the SCA is not the thing for many on this forum, it may well be for the individual who started this thread. So please do post the name of the group and any contact information that you might have.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Thank you ,Sir:
Starleaf Gate (Shire)
Ragnar Drakkarson (John McKee)
439 Bertha St
Windsor, ONT N8P1B6
519-945-6227 cmckee@cogeco.ca
This is in the Midrealm and covers US and Canada. I do not know John McKee, but he is listed as a contact in Canada.
As I have said before, the SCA has members that are also Members in other groups in the WMA.

Good luck.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Like everyone studying WMA you have every right to your interpretations and to believe that your interpretatons are better than all of the others. But does that give you grounds for telling people on a public forum to not take classes with ARMA? Especially in light of the fact that you clearly have no idea of ARMA's interpretations or curricula! ARMA members are always totally astounded that such basic etiquette that is extended to others is so often dropped when speaking of us.


Randall, this is my forum and I define who has the right to say what on it. Let me assure you that people have the right to express their opinion on this public forum. Further, they are allowed to dissuade others from using a service, participating with a group, or purchasing a product should their opinions be expressed in an appropriate manner.

The original poster's statement was expressed as his opinion based on his own experience. It included a disclaimer as such which allows others to take it in the correct context. He later went as far to also include compliments and efforts of expressing respect. He did give basic etiquette and there is no need for you to circle the wagons and get defensive about such things.

You would be better served by understanding that others will have opinions that differ from your own and to allow such differences to exist without feeling the need to vehemently defend yourselve at every turn. Such responses can often cause more damage than the original critique every could.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
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Posts: 337

PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,
You hit it on the head. Thank you.

This IS your forum and we do need to follow the rules. I believe that most of us here support you in this matter.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Keep in mind that a large majority of the people studying Renaissance and Medieval martial arts as an actual martial art are currently students of John Clements


Umm no, not even close. There are at least 100 non- ARMA groups around the world.

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Sean Smith





Joined: 31 Mar 2004

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 06 Feb, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not mentioned is also Guy Windsor's "Duelist's Companion". Not sure if this is the best "intro" book, but it is what my fiancee's small study group is going through. De-constructs Cappo Ferro (if what I heard half-paying attention is correct).
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