Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Arms and Armor "bargains" Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 11:15 pm    Post subject: Arms and Armor "bargains"         Reply with quote

I just recently came back from WMAW, and one of the many incredible things about this event was the presence of some excellent vendors. Craig Johnson of Arms and Armor had a table set up, and it is always quite a treat to be able to handle their wares before making a purchase.

One of the things I always hear about A&A's products, though, is the thought that they are in the middle-to-upper price range. In many cases this is true, but they have more than a few products that are simply fantastic that run under $200. In fact, some of these items Craig used as part of a lecture on non-sword weapons, in which he allowed students to beat on a large wooden block, which he later screwed a 16 gauge piece of steel onto for further abusive testing. Combining the toughness, superb handling characteristics, and historical accuracy, some of these items are really hard to beat.

#147 Iberian Mace: $115


This is a handy little piece. I'm generally not so much of a mace person, but this thing could certainly change my mind. Contrary to popular belief, this mace is not slow or awkward. For a mass weapon, it is reasonably agile (not so much as a typical sword, of course), and one strike can easily flow into another with little effort. It is also a nasty little critter, in that the spikes act as force multipliers wherever they strike. This was among the pieces that was used in Craig's lecture.

#104 Hungarian Axe: $125


For the low price of $125, you get quite a lot of weapon. This thing is remarkably fast and agile, completely dispelling the myth that axes are nothing more than brute choppers. As Christian Tobler put it, this thing is like a pocket poleax. Most techniques within the Liechtenauer tradition were easily applied to this weapon: Simple counterattacks, binds, thrusts, hooks and grapples. Craig also used this in his lecture, and the one he used saw some incredibly minute damage to the tip after repeated hard thrusts into 16 guage steel mounted on a wooden block. Because of this, I was able to talk Craig into selling me the demo piece at a reduced price.

#214 Javelin: $48 (!!!)


Now these come at a price that is just plain hard to walk away from. These things are just fun! They're nicely finished, small and light, and are quick little things. While they'd be considered a little flimsy for hand to hand combat, they're perfect for throwing. A few of my students and I left WMAW with four of these.

A&A also has three spears, though at this stage I've yet to handle one. I do have one on order that I'm looking forward to, though. There are also the daggers, many of which are under $200, and all of which are incredibly nice.

So, next time you think that you wish you could afford an A&A piece, think again... maybe they have something you might want to pick up after all.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,176

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill;

Now you've done it Eek! and I'm thinking seriously about the Hungarian axe. Wink Laughing Out Loud

The mace and javelins I already have so at least that limits the damage. Big Grin

Well, at least you are right that these are affordable and may be considered the neglected " sleepers " of the A & A line.

Which A & A spear are you buying by the way ? I have the 12th century winged spear and the Viking spear.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 2:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill, would you be so good as to give us a report on javelin tossing when you've had them a month or so?

Especially technique-wise.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Darnit Bill, don't go around telling the boys at A&A that their stuff is a bargain! Next thing you know they will go raise the prices to keep up with the Joneses and I haven't purchased any of those pieces yet!!! Happy
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I have the 12th century winged spear and the Viking spear.


I'm having Craig make me a 12th century spear that has a "break down" shaft. It's going to be blunt so I can travel with it to use for demos.

George Hill wrote:
Bill, would you be so good as to give us a report on javelin tossing when you've had them a month or so?

Especially technique-wise.


Will do... but it may be a little disappointing on the technical side. I have no idea what I'm doing when throwing them other than, "chuck this thing that way!"

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
George Hill wrote:
Bill, would you be so good as to give us a report on javelin tossing when you've had them a month or so?

Especially technique-wise.


Will do... but it may be a little disappointing on the technical side. I have no idea what I'm doing when throwing them other than, "chuck this thing that way!"


talhoffer shows a few spear tosses. Bigger spears I believe though. He seems to toss with an upper body twist and without a step.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,176

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
talhoffer shows a few spear tosses. Bigger spears I believe though. He seems to toss with an upper body twist and without a step.


Just guessing but I think that this would be for close range tosses were speed of getting the javelin out there in the target quickly is essential. This is very different from battlefield mass use were getting maximum range would take priority over accuracy.

The style of javelin throwing seen as an Olympic event with a short but fast run to get that maximum range with an optimized for range javelin might be a problem for large formations and need a lot of space for each thrower.
( A similar " space/elbow room " problem with the sling ).

With the A & A javelin I would be curious about effectiveness on target i.e. penetration since these are on the light side of the throwing spear spectrum: Very much like very heavy hand thrown arrows. Eek! Laughing Out Loud

Maybe we should split this into a new Topic dealing with javelin throwing ? ( Suggestion to the moderators ? ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,135

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Maybe we should split this into a new Topic dealing with javelin throwing ? ( Suggestion to the moderators ? ).


If you wish to talk about javelin throwing more than has already been discussed, simply start a new topic.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
talhoffer shows a few spear tosses. Bigger spears I believe though. He seems to toss with an upper body twist and without a step.


Well, unfortunately, Talhoffer isn't exactly what I'd call a technical manual, particularly in that he only has one single plate in which a large spear is thrown. Still, I'm looking forward to playing around with these javelins more. Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gavin Kisebach




Location: Lacey, Wa US
Joined: 01 Aug 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 650

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've had my heart set on these three exact items fow waaay too long. I think these are the hidden gems of A&A.

I have a ghastly welded throwing spear head that I've been tossing pretty regularly across my yard, and I think I'll have to break down and get that javelin this year. My spear weighs at least twice as much and I have thrown is as far as 34 yards. I'm afraid that this excellent little javelin would sail into my neighbor's yard. When I do get one, I'll take it to a big open field and let you know how it flies. The mace is next on my list.

As an aside (Chad forgive me Big Grin ) throwing a spear has a few simple tricks: Don't close your thumb over the haft, frind the point of balance, and stand up straight before the throw. There is a statue of Poseidon that is a good reference for this. My practice is more like a clout shoot than a throwing axe or knife practice.
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 16 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While slightly more expensive, I was very pleased with handling the #005 Warhammer http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole005.html at Craig's demonstration. A very nice "clue stick", if I've ever handled one. Between that and the Iberian Mace, among other things, I may have to place some orders in the coming year.

The javelin I picked up feels nice in the hand. I could see it also serving as a short-spear in a pinch.

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
My armor photos on facebook


Last edited by Ed Toton on Fri 05 Oct, 2007 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chris Olsen




Location: Saint Paul
Joined: 23 Mar 2006

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

With the A & A javelin I would be curious about effectiveness on target i.e. penetration since these are on the light side of the throwing spear spectrum: Very much like very heavy hand thrown arrows



<insert throat clearing and looking around to see if anyone is watching>

um they will penetrate an MRL segmented breatsplate (I think it was the german gothic or some such) from about 21-25 feet away, and advance far enough that the head and shaft passed through to the backside but not exit, thrown by a colegate level javelin thrower, with only an armor rack for support, it went in right about the collar bone or 2 and 3rd rib on the left chest. the head had been sharpened, because it woked better for demonstartions,

stupid. yes
fun absolutley
was I involved? , only from the stand point it was my javelin and my alibi swears i was in the bathroom.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 112 books

Posts: 1,019

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is an area where I've been most fortunate from going to the Bristol Faire a few times every summer, I've been able to handle so many wares made by Arms & Armor.
If you up the ceiling limit from $200 to $300 this opens the door to a lot of polearms and all the daggers, but you won't find any swords in this price range because high quality does cost money!
Under $200 range I've acquired the Hungarian Axe, Iberian Mace, Javelin, 2 Nordland Axes, 12th Century Spear and the Flail while on special sale price at $180. English Buckler, Spiked Buckler.
Under $300 I have the Warhammer, Spiked Mace, Danish War Axe
You can get the standard Sparth Axe for around $300, I bought a custom version for $420 and a Bec De Corbin for $480.
Their polearms are of incredible quality!

Bob
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Wed 10 Oct, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was just practicing with the javelin with Pamela Muir and David Rowe. Man, that's a fun little piece!

Technique-wise, I found that I threw best if I held it in both hands, using the left hand to aim, and the right to throw. I'd take a step, then pass my right foot forward in a lunge as I put my hip into it, and extend my right arm outward. As long as I made sure to extend straight ahead, it wasn't difficult to aim.

David's method (which might be more correct) was to point with his left arm at the target for aim, holding the spear in the right at the balance point. Then he'd step more or less as I was describing above. Whichever method was used, though, it was important to get the whole body into the throw, otherwise the javelin would not have the force to maintain a straight path.

I'm half tempted to purchase yet another one of these. Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Pamela Muir




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Thu 11 Oct, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:


I'm half tempted to purchase yet another one of these. Happy


And I'm tempted to go in "halves" (or thirds) with you. Wink I don't have the technique down yet, but it sure is fun to keep trying. (Rationalization alert) It makes sense to have more than 1, so we can throw more than once before needing to retrieve it.

Pamela Muir

Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts


"I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight." ~Steinman/Pitchford
View user's profile Send private message
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Thu 11 Oct, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pamela Muir wrote:
Bill Grandy wrote:


I'm half tempted to purchase yet another one of these. Happy


And I'm tempted to go in "halves" (or thirds) with you. Wink I don't have the technique down yet, but it sure is fun to keep trying. (Rationalization alert) It makes sense to have more than 1, so we can throw more than once before needing to retrieve it.


Bill, when you said you and your students left with four... I thought you meant FOUR EACH! Eek! Eek!

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Thu 11 Oct, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, more javelin addicts!

Yes, these are totally incredible for the money and loads of fun to play with.

Hmm...I think I hear my wallet whimpering at the thought of me buying more of these.

Bill & Pamela: what are you guys using as a target?

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Chris Last




Location: Janesville, WI
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Thu 11 Oct, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those javelins are a fun little thing eh? The best luck I had was with a thong/sling and throwing them sidearmed. I could get some wicked penetration on a haybale when we did Lloyd Clark's Camelot faire last year. Lots of fun with those.
" Hang fires are all fun and games untill someone gets their eye poked out... by charging calvary." - J.Shoemaker

Chris Last
GSM-Bristol
http://www.gsmbristol.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Thu 11 Oct, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Bill & Pamela: what are you guys using as a target?


Nothing fancy. We had a large piece of cardboard that was going to be trashed, and a steep grassy hill to lean it against. Though Pamela has some foam archery targets, and we likely will try those at some point.

George Hill wrote:
Bill, when you said you and your students left with four... I thought you meant FOUR EACH!


Unfortunately no. Craig only had four to sell at the time. But as fun as these are to use, I can definately see us picking more up...

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Thu 11 Oct, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have two head&butt cap sets from Paul Chen which I bought to try what I read in a furusiya manual and those have opened up a whole new way of looking at spears for me.

I cannot throw them very far wether I make them light or heavy. Yes the mass has a direct influance on penetration potential but the penetration power of the lightest bamboo ones is still quite deadly at 20 yards and that is with them blunted to give more metal to support the point.
The lighter spears are however incompairably much easier to manouvre as stated in the manual and when handled by an expert there is no way a swordsman can defend himself against it.
Them both being mounted ofcourse.
I quite understand why the spear gets só much more coverage in these mamluk manuals. There is no discussion about wether a sword is essential for personal protection as is a dagger. As an offensive ´contact´ weapon for the mounted warior however the spear is pretty hard to beat because of the reach and easy manouvrability.

I am now reading the Amadis of Gaul and even though te lance is used in a very different and less flexible way it still is clearly portrait as very much the primairy weapon of the mounted warrior.
I guess modern day re-enactors can tell from first hand experience how the balance is between lance (spear) and sword.
Searching under ´jousting´ on youtube is quite informative too. Just imagine one guy to have a sword Laughing Out Loud

Peter
View user's profile


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Arms and Armor "bargains"
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum