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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Wed 26 Sep, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Is there a Heraldry aficionado in the house?         Reply with quote

Hi there am hoping someone here might assist me?

I am looking to create artwork for my family crest or coat of arms, probably just the shild as I want to create artwork for a coin to be inserted into the pommel of a Kingmaker.

I have full graphic design capabilities at my office so I can create the die. Basically I am hoping to get a scan or pictorial reference to base the artwork on. I have googled but I get swamped with the commercial sites wher I don't get to view a decent image.

My surname is ANSTEY

Any help or non-commercial links will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

JAson
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,803

PostPosted: Wed 26 Sep, 2007 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jason,

If anywhere, an Anstey crest and arms would show up in Burke's, or similar peerage reference.

Sart weeding through these search results.

Anstey Peerage

Also realize that arms themselves are individual. Crests and badges can be familial but the use of such may be truly anachronistic unless you have some real tight genealogy work done connecting yourself to those Ansteys.

With Anstey being also a place name, you may have a tough row to hoe.

In my opinion, shun commercial sites.

Some of Burke's is online and accessible, it is also available through interlibrary requests.

If you just want to make some stuff up, I have a couple of sites bookmarked somewhere with graphics.

Work the family history as best you can first. it will pay off iin the long run with what you will find.

Cheers

GC
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Wed 26 Sep, 2007 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many thanks Glen,

From memory the crest is as follows.

Red Cross on gold shield. Four red martlets in the gold corners and 5 balls in the red cross, can't recall the name of what the balls are. or was it gold cross on red?

Arghh, I thought it would be so simple, but tracing the family history has been a bit difficult being a 'Wild Colonial Boy!"

to be honest I have never heard of Peerage.

Thanks for the start.

Cheers

Jason
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2007 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: Is there a Heraldry aficionado in the house?         Reply with quote

Hi Jason,

J Anstey wrote:
Hi there am hoping someone here might assist me?

I am looking to create artwork for my family crest or coat of arms, probably just the shild as I want to create artwork for a coin to be inserted into the pommel of a Kingmaker.
{snip}
My surname is ANSTEY

Any help or non-commercial links will be greatly appreciated.


I'm a second generation amateur herald, and the son of a serious amateur heraldic scholar.

The problem is that you're running into the most common misconception about heraldry. There is no such thing as a "family crest". Heraldry doesn't go with surnames, despite the various websites attempting to sell you such. They are all, universally, fraudulent.

Heraldry belongs to individuals, not families and it is real inheritable property. If you go using someone else's arms, heraldic courts and in particular Scotland's Lyon Court may get grumpy with you. It doesn't necessarily matter that you live in a different country than the one in which the arms were registered, or in a country without a heraldic authority.

Now, the likelyhood that you will actually be prosecuted may be pretty small, but nontheless I think if people (any people, not just you) want to put heraldry on something they should learn about what they are doing first, because there are a lot of misconceptions out there. By learning a bit about it you'll most likely end up with better armory decorating your nice sword anyway.

In the US you may be able to simply assume heraldry since the USA has no established heraldic authority dealing with civillian heraldry, but you should probably make sure you're not infringing on someone's rightfully registered armory first. There are people of Scots descent in America who have registered armory through the Lyon Court.

From the webpages of the Lyon Court (the Scottish Heraldic court, which is a functioning court of law)
Quote:

There is a widespread misconception that a family or a clan can have a family or clan Coat of Arms. Many heraldic and clan web sites and other media suggest that a person has the right to use the family or clan Arms. This is completely incorrect.

A Coat of Arms belongs only to one individual person and can only be used by that person and no one else. In order for a person to be able to use a Coat of Arms it is necessary for that individual person to apply for a personal Coat of Arms to be granted to him or her .


From the Website of the Garter King of Arms, the English and commonwealth heraldic court:
Quote:

Q. Do coats of arms belong to surnames?

A. No. There is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.


The other thing to note is that the word "crest" refers only to the bit on top of the helm, just as it would in real life. The term for a shield with armory on it, with a helm on top, surrounded by all the frilly bits and with optional figures (supporters) on either side is an "achievement of arms". The arms themselves are on the shield. Those are the bits you're interested in if you want to inset something into the pommel of a sword.

Now, all that said you have a couple of options here. You can, if you are eligible, apply to matriculate arms with one of the recognised heraldic courts of the commonwealth but this will cost you a lot of money (a couple or three swords' worth) you might be better of spending on more swords or something.

If all you want is a nice coat of arms to stick on your sword, and that's all you're going to use it for, you're probably better off just learning a bit about heraldic style and making something up or copying something from one of the medieval rolls of arms. Medieval heraldic style was a bit different to modern heraldic style in a lot of ways anyway, so if you want something to go with your kingmaker then you may be better off with medieval style heraldry.

There are various heraldic rolls online that can be found with a bit of googling, though you have to sift through the junk that you find on sites trying to sell you your "family arms" and the various SCA rolls (SCA armory is not checked against real-world armory because it is used in a specific "reenactment" environment). Heraldica is a good place to start. There are links to a significant number of period rolls of arms (with redrawn heraldry, possibly in a slightly modern style) at [url]http://perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/era/early rolls of arms.htm[/url].

I hope this helps.

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2007 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Al

Thanks for the very informative post even though it really stuffs up my lofty idea Big Grin

Hmm the sword really begs for an insert so I will have to ponder this further. I really don't think I can get records to substantiate.

By the way we're almost neighbours, I'm a West Aussie.

Thanks again

Jason
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2007 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J Anstey wrote:
Hi Al

Thanks for the very informative post even though it really stuffs up my lofty idea Big Grin

Hmm the sword really begs for an insert so I will have to ponder this further. I really don't think I can get records to substantiate.


Like I said, don't let that stop you finding some neat arms to put on your sword. If that's all you're going to use them for, just pick some and use them. Avoid ones from guys named Le Roy though Happy I'd also avoid "Azure, a bend Or" (blue with a thick diagonal gold stripe) because that armory is famous for being the subject of the first recorded armorial dispute (Scrope v.s. Grosvenor).

[url]http://perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/era/early rolls of arms.htm[/url] almost certainly has something you'll like. There are ones in there that wouldn't even be too hard to enamel if you wanted to do something accurately constructed. Arms in the rolls beloning to counts and dukes may well still be in use today, but there are still a lot of arms in those rolls that are ascribed to untitled men.

Quote:

By the way we're almost neighbours, I'm a West Aussie.


G'day Happy

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,803

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jason,

Something for a pommel insert would benefit from being pretty simple. A lot of medieval badges were very simple icons. A few would do for entire pommels themselves, such as the Percy crescent i use as an avatar. While arms and some elements are very specifically personal, it was not uncommon for many to carry associated elements on their livery.

There are so many Anstey locations in the UK that narrowing down even civic heraldry would be a task. However, doing some study of historic Anstey figures might yield something in the way of an element you find appealing and can identify with.

I have no direct connection to the various houses of the Percies that I know of but am drawn enough to the history that "I fight for the Percies" "Esperance!!!". I do know my ancestors trod the same roads and that my surname was used as more than one place name. One goes back before the Norman invasion.

Near four decades ago, I chuckled with my grandfather over what a highly acclaimed Boston company came up with for detailed surname research and arms. it was the beginning of family research that goes on to this day. There are many that do share research on a non-commercial basis and it can be truly interesting connecting the dots.

Best of luck and do keep us updated on a choice/find.

Cheers

GC
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many thanks Glen

It surprised me that there was so many references to Anstey as I alway considered it an uncommon name especially as most can't even pronounce it correctly. Last time I checked here are only about 30 in Western Australia and 22 of them are my relatives.

Big Grin

Anway I will see what I can dig up and have a think about various symbols as well.

Cheers

Jason
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