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W. R. Reynolds




Location: Ramona, CA
Joined: 07 Dec 2004

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Horsemanship         Reply with quote

WARNING!!! The following video contains violence in the bullring. If you are sensitive to that DON’T WATCH!!! The intent of posting this is not to shower you with violence.

There has been much said in this forum about ground troops fighting an armored mounted opponent once things reach melee status and the ability of ground troops to take down a rider. It’s not as easy as it sounds. Granted, the rider in this video is not in armour, and the bull has only it’s horns, but you will walk away from this with an appreciation of what a good rider/horse team is capable of. Remember that the armored mounted man of the day spent a good portion of his life training for mounted combat.

No matter what conclusions you draw from this, you will witness some astounding horsemanship. THAT is the focus. Hope the link comes across ok.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg

Bill

"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
Industry Professional



Location: Ramona CA USA
Joined: 22 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2007 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is truly an inspiring video. Though the bull undergoes a lot in bullfighting, he adds the one essential element that makes this so "real"-- the life threatening -danger-; without that, the skill wouldn't mean nearly so much. At least to me.
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
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W. R. Reynolds




Location: Ramona, CA
Joined: 07 Dec 2004

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2007 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff,

I wasn't sure how you and Gwen would take the bull fighting so I didn't mention it the other night. Great moves by that horse and rider, no?

Bill

"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Absolutely wonderful displays of horsemanship! Those side-passes at the canter are incredible, and the bravado of patting the bull on the head is just too outragous for words. The beauty of horse and rider working together as a team, with hardly a visible cue to be seen is just gorgeous. Ah, to be able to ride like that!

You are of course absolutely correct in that it was horsemanship like this that would be displayed on the battlefield, at least by some of the best riders. Just like the ballet of the swordsmanship in WMA, the ballet of horseman and rider in WMA is beautiful and deadly. And cool! Cool

Thanks for posting that, Bill. I just love watching it over and over!

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
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W. R. Reynolds




Location: Ramona, CA
Joined: 07 Dec 2004

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Gordon,

I knew that there was a finite amount of horse people on this forum who would appreciate this and would know what a skilled mounted team is capable of. My hopes were that some of the "ground pounders" would weigh in, and that maybe this would change some opinions about foot vs. mounted. Melee of course. If infantry sticks together history has shown that it is very difficult for mounted to defeat them.

Bill

"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
Joined: 13 Jun 2004

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eek! Oh, WOW! Eek!

I feel absolutely and unequivocally insignificant in my skills on horseback. I mean I knew I was a beginner, but Eek!. Boy do I need practice.

Cheers,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2007 1:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! Eek! ! WOW!

Imagine that with a clipius and a few pilumbatas! That I wouldn´t wanna be a routing infantery soldier with that baring down on me!

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Martin Wilkinson





Joined: 05 Mar 2006

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2007 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That really is incredible horsemanship.

But, i feel it is worth pointing out that that takes not only a skilled rider, but also a trained horse. These weren't always available on campaign due to the riders trained horse dying due to injury recieved in battle, diesease etc.

The one thing this video highlights for me is that the target you should be aiming for is the horse not the rider (as barbarous as that is to say today).

"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."

Schola Gladiatoria
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Eric Myers




Location: Sacramento, CA
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's some fancy horsemanship, and an awesomely trained horse! For those of you who live in California, you can see more Portuguese bullfights in various towns in the Central Valley. The bulls horns are capped when there is a horse in the ring too, and the spears are velcro tipped rather than barbed, but they are pretty fun events, with lots of good action Big Grin
Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nate C. wrote:
I feel absolutely and unequivocally insignificant in my skills on horseback. I mean I knew I was a beginner, but Eek!. Boy do I need practice


*echoes the statement* ^_^;
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Justin H. Núñez




Location: Hyde Park, UT
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just watched the bullfighting video and I agree it is amazing. It just goes to show what can be done it you ride every day for a couple of hours with the right stuff. I don't know if anyone will believe me, but I would bet that his horses actually like their work. Horses love to work, they love to have something to do other than be schooled on. I remember in Arizona I used to train horses, I mean everything from dressage to team roping to race horses and we always crossed trained to a certain degree. The dressage horses liked working the tests, but almost all of them LOVED working with cattle. They liked the control they had over them. Ride a horse down the trail and he'll like you, but give a horse a job he likes and he'll love you just as long as he doesn't get hurt or too tired).
I know this is a kind of rambling post but i am just writhing as thing come to my head. I remember redding in Charlton Heston's autobiography that while filming El Cid the two stallions he used as Babieca, El Cid's Horse, loved the jousting and battle scenes. He said that that they really got into it, as long as they didn't get hit, but even then they still would go after it.
Have Fun!

"Nothing in fencing is really difficult, it just takes work." - Aldo Nadi
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very impressive clip: It's almost as if the spinal cord of the rider and the spinal cord of the horse were linked and in direct neural communication with each other !

How much is the rider directing the horse and to what degree does the horse take the general intent of the rider and makes it own decisions reacting to the unpredictable moves of the bull ?

The horse obviously know what it's doing and is courageous as well as confident.

There has to be a lot of unconscious cueing going in both directions as there would be no time for one sided instructions telling the horse what to do in detail: Reaction times would be too slow and the number of instructions to great for linear one by one orders from the rider to the horse i.e. the rider can tell the horse what to do but there is no time to tell it how to do it. Wink

I guess that what training is all about and both horse and rider have to be the best there is to display this level of skill. Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
Joined: 05 Feb 2004

Posts: 212

PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jean, some of the movements the horse would be executing itself. I have some video here at home showing a horse of this type chasing and evading a bull with no rider.

Australian Stock Horses are trained to cut a beast out of the camp with no cues from the rider. The rider then takes over during the course.

When riding you never stop learning and I think you would find that even that rider would say he doesn't know it all.

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod Walker wrote:
Hi Jean, some of the movements the horse would be executing itself. I have some video here at home showing a horse of this type chasing and evading a bull with no rider.

Australian Stock Horses are trained to cut a beast out of the camp with no cues from the rider. The rider then takes over during the course.

When riding you never stop learning and I think you would find that even that rider would say he doesn't know it all.


Thanks for confirming what I was honestly just guessing at since the most riding I've ever done was a few minutes on horseback at a Zoo when I was a really little kid many many decades ago. ( The kind of thing where you sit on the horse and some adult leads the horse around in a small circle. Wink Laughing Out Loud ). It's always a risk discussing stuff one has no real experience about.

Again, in any case that clip was very impressive and I'm trying to imagine what a loose melee would look like if many of the riders and horses were this good. ( Loose melee so that there is some room to manoeuvre as opposed to a tight press ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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