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Steven C.





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Teutonic Knights Helm         Reply with quote

Dunno where to put this, but does anyone know where to buy a Teutonic Knights style great helm? The classic one with horns, or a crest on it.

I'd be interested in using it to compliment a German knightly sword.

And does anyone know which sword the Teutonic Knights likely used in the Northern Crusades?
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Steven,

I cannot speak to the helm issue but as far as swords go Albion's Ritter is a very nice 13th C. example with a Gernman flare. The Baron and the Duke are hand and a half examples from the late 13th. early 14th C. and certainly could have been carried by German knights

Jeremy
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Lloyd Clark




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Look HERE



Is this the type you are looking for?

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lloyd,
That's an interesting looking helmet, though I'm not sure I've ever seen breaths that big or those scalloped reinforcements in any surviving piece or period art. The large breath holes, especially on the left side, would seem to not be a great structural feature. Do you know of any historical precedent for a helm with that decoriation?

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Lloyd Clark




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Lloyd,
That's an interesting looking helmet, though I'm not sure I've ever seen breaths that big or those scalloped reinforcements in any surviving piece or period art. The large breath holes, especially on the left side, would seem to not be a great structural feature. Do you know of any historical precedent for a helm with that decoriation?


Not of the top of my head (no pun intended) - I just remembered seeing this helm while I was looking to pick up some new pieces for my joust kit and the thought stuck that it looked like the helm in a few modern paintings (read this as Osprey) of Teutonic knights. I'll see what I can find, but I figure that the armourer took "artistic liberties" with the scalloping of the steel.

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
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Ryan Renfro




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Steven,

Drachenhort make a "Topfhelm mit HŲrnern und Krone" which looks quite like one of the manuscript illustrations found in William Urbanís "The Teutonic Knights":

http://s213470865.online.de/catalog/product_i...cts_id=751

I second Jeremyís recommendation of the Albion Ritter. I saw the original sword in Berlin ten years ago and Albion has done a great job re-creating it. Christian Fletcher just finished a Manesse-Codex-style black and white scabbard/belt for mine and the photos of it look great!

http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fl..._lake.html



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 8:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan Renfro wrote:
Hi Steven,

Drachenhort make a "Topfhelm mit HŲrnern und Krone" which looks quite like one of the manuscript illustrations found in William Urbanís "The Teutonic Knights":

http://s213470865.online.de/catalog/product_i...cts_id=751



That helm doesn't appear very historic. It does have horns, but the surviving historical horned crests we have are not made of entirely of steel and rivetted to the side of the helm. I can't recall any historical manuscripts that show a helm with horns like that either.

People keep recommending the Ritter, which is a fine sword for a Teutonic kit (and a fine sword in general). Happy However, the helms posted fall pretty clearly into the latter half of the 13th century, while the Ritter belongs pretty clearly to the early part of the 13th century.

This is a helm from the Maciejowski Bible, which is from circa 1250. Even it is approaching being too late for the Ritter, and it's not even a fully developed great helm:


Happy

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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 1:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan Renfro wrote:
Hi Steven,

Drachenhort make a \"Topfhelm mit HŲrnern und Krone\" which looks quite like one of the manuscript illustrations found in William Urbanís \"The Teutonic Knights\":

http://s213470865.online.de/catalog/product_i...cts_id=751

I second Jeremyís recommendation of the Albion Ritter. I saw the original sword in Berlin ten years ago and Albion has done a great job re-creating it. Christian Fletcher just finished a Manesse-Codex-style black and white scabbard/belt for mine and the photos of it look great!

http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fl..._lake.html


The helm is total fantasy, since crests with fantastic animals and three dimensional representation of nobility crests were separate and made of a wooden structure covered by molded and painted leather.

They are typical of great helms, even if a renaissance italian armor has a horned top attached above its armet (the famous \"artiglio del diavolo armour\", the devil\'s paw armor). Such horns are real tiny horns attached to a little dome shaped plate which is bolted to the top of the armet.

Such tops were removable since they could be used just as pomp items, not as fighting implements, even if some miniatures show them used in real battle, but it could be an artistic license taken to showcase the heraldry of important characters .

This fantasy helm derives from the nineteenth century misinterpretation of viking helms, who were strangely believed to be topped with hors, as it could be see at any wagnerian opera until he fifties of the twentieth century.

Just a by product of the many misconceptions of Romanticism about armor.
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

THE link for Great Helms

That should help. If you want horns or such, stick with a style circa. 1250-1275 and then use the Manesse Codex to figure out your decorative elements. This should present a striking helm with both an accurate look and some fancy flavor!

-Gregory-

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:
THE link for Great Helms

That should help. If you want horns or such, stick with a style circa. 1250-1275 and then use the Manesse Codex to figure out your decorative elements. This should present a striking helm with both an accurate look and some fancy flavor!

-Gregory-


The link doesn't work.

Happy

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Steven C.





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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Uh.. the link works sure, but thats not showing me where to buy them.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven C. wrote:
Uh.. the link works sure, but thats not showing me where to buy them.


It didn't work the first time I tried it but appears to be working now.

As for showing you where to buy them, there is tremendous benefit to finding good info and being an informed buyer. That link will help show you what helms in the market are accurate or not.

Happy

Happy

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding where to buy great helms: have you checked out extensive links pages to see what production and custom makers are making?

Also, what is your price range? Helms can be had from around $100 to over $1000 and more.

Which part of the Northern Crusades are you interested in? The Northern Crusades can be said to have lasted most of the 13th century (and into the 14th as well as the last few years of the 12th). The great helm underwent a lot of change during the 13th century. Which part of the century you're interested in should dictate the kind of great helm people recommend for you.

If you want a crest of a certain kind that may dictate your time period as well. Not every crest was popular during every era/area.

A little more info will help us help you better. Happy

Happy

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Ryan Renfro




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Drachenhort helm certainly isnít a perfect reproduction, but it is about the only production piece that I recall seeing that came close so I thought I would throw it out there.

If youíre looking to be strictly historically accurate, thereís always the Prankhe helm in Vienna. Iím sure most good armourers would be willing to produce a custom piece based on your specifications. I think I recall seeing pictures of Rob Valentine adding one to a much later helm.

Oh right, I see Greg just linked to the page with the Prankhe.

The reenactment community in Germany seems to have a good number of great helms with various heraldic additions to the top, but Iím not sure who is making them.

http://www.welfenburg.de/data_new/realien/helm/helm.html

As for the Ritter, it does fit well within the early part of the Baltic Crusades, although may have been a bit dated by the time of a more fully-developed great helm. I think quite a few type XI may have still been in use by the time of the helmet you have in mind, though. Swords were expensive items and itís not difficult to imagine one in good repair being used 50 or 60 years after manufacture, especially by poorer knights.
There also may have been less pressure to upgrade weapon styles based upon the poor state of armour among the pagan tribes as detailed by Henry of Livonia.
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Steven C.





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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really the only crest I'm interested in are the simple horns. Look like bullhorns. Standing up right. I don't know for sure what era but 1200-1300 sounds right.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven C. wrote:
Really the only crest I'm interested in are the simple horns. Look like bullhorns. Standing up right. I don't know for sure what era but 1200-1300 sounds right.


The crests with the large horns seem to be more of a 14th century thing than a 13th century one. While early crests are known (see the seal of Richard I), period iconography doesn't seem to show them regularly until the 14th century. The von Prank helm probably looks like what you're talking about (see below), but dates from the 14th century.



The Manesse Codex shows a bunch of horn-like crests, too. It dates from the 14th century as well.

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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

People keep recommending the Ritter, which is a fine sword for a Teutonic kit (and a fine sword in general). Happy However, the helms posted fall pretty clearly into the latter half of the 13th century, while the Ritter belongs pretty clearly to the early part of the 13th century.


And what's the problem with that? Swords were often used for 100 years or more. I was not aware that the Ritter is CLEARLY attributable to the early part of the 13th c. I was under the impression that a sword like the Ritter could very well be dated from 1250.

Jeremy
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:

And what's the problem with that? Swords were often used for 100 years or more. I was not aware that the Ritter is CLEARLY attributable to the early part of the 13th c. I was under the impression that a sword like the Ritter could very well be dated from 1250.

Jeremy


The museum the Ritter's inspiration lives in dates it to the early 13th century. I'd hope their curators did that for a reason. Happy Also, the maker of the repro (Albion) dates it to the first half of the 13th century. Oakeshott considered the blade type to be most common to the period 1100-1175 or thereabouts. Taken together, a convincing case can be made for the sword being most typical to the 12th or early 13th century. Could it date to 1250? Sure, but people a lot more learned than me seem to think it belongs earlier in the century.

You are correct that swords could be used for long periods of time, but a sword of that style would not necessarily be typical of a later period. You can make a case for almost any sword being used in a later period than its creation (since we don't usually have records to the contrary), but that doesn't mean it's typical. So someone could build a kit that included a Viking Sword, hourglass gauntlets, and a close helm and call it possible.

My personal preference is not to mix and match to that degree. Notice, though, that I didn't say that the poster should or shouldn't do it. People are giving advice on swords and helms that fall on opposite ends of a century that saw a lot of changes to both. Most people building kits are looking for something more typical of the persona being portrayed.

It seemed obvious to me that some people involved in the thread didn't know that those items came from opposite ends of an evolutionary century. I thought it was important to point out that the items being recommended didn't necessarily see their most common usage at the same time. If I were building a kit, I'd want the items to be closer together in terms of the periods of their common usage. But that's just my own preference and opinion.

Mileage always varies.

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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I see your point,

I went back and looked at Albion's site after I posted and noticed that Peter does attribute this type of sword to the early 13th c. Personally, I feel more strongly that this sword should not be dated earlier than 1200. It does not have the spirit of the 12th c. in my mind.

I think it could be reasonable to have a sword dated 1225-1250 and a helm dated 1300. Date the helm 1350 and I think we would be stretching it. Give the sword a slightly latter period scabbard and I think it would be cool.

Still the Duke or Baron would be an excellent choice. A little latter and one could go with a Steward (I can't remember the name of that other sword that uses the blade of the Ritter).

Of course, choosing a single hand or hand-and-a-half sword would influence the kit,

Jeremy
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven C. wrote:
Uh.. the link works sure, but thats not showing me where to buy them.


As Chad said, making a purchase based on an educated eye for accuracy and function is the key to happiness. If you buy one that's sloppy and see a better one you'll just be in that re-sale hole, losing a few buck each time you upgrade. Go for the good stuff first.

-Gregory-

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