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Rechinul Ro





Joined: 27 Aug 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: what type of sword is this and what year ?         Reply with quote

hello people ,

i have this sword from one of my friend , he say to me this is very ols sword like 1640 or something , i try to find over internet information but i not succed .

if anyone can help me with some information...............






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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could be a Khyber knife ( sword )

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/kn...ary/k.html
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Good-Indo-Persian-Khybe...dZViewItem

At least from what I can see in the pics it looks like it could be a Khyber knife or something else of similar design.

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks like a Rugger: a long knife popular in south german areas. It could be as old as first half of 16th C, but that is difficult to say. At least I cannot date it exactly. Perhaps there are others here that could.
A dating feature can be the ferrule/ collar where the blade meets th grip. These change shape over time. The Rugger is related to the Hauswehr and Bauernwehr knife types.
This is one of the shapes the Late meadieval weapon-knife can take.

I do not think it is a Khyber knife.


Last edited by Peter Johnsson on Mon 27 Aug, 2007 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
It looks like a Rugger: a long knife popular in south german areas. It could be as old as first half of 16th C, but that is difficult to say. At least I cannot date it exactly. Perhaps there are others here that could.
A dating feature can be the ferrule/ collar where the blade meets th grip. These change shape over time. The Rugger is related to the Hauswher and Bauernwher knife types.
This is one of the shapes the Late meadieval weapon-knife can take.

I do not think it is a Khyber knife.


The odds are much higher that Peter is right here and my guess about it being a Khyber knife is wrong. Wink Cool

At least functionally the Rugger and the Khyber knife seen to be similar design solutions to a long war Knife and look a bit the same on the pic: A Khyber Knife would have a very wide back and the blade section would be T shaped. The pic shows some kind of fuller but it's hard to see in the pic how thick the back of the blade is and I may have mis-interpreted the shape of the blade cross section.

( Note: As well I am not familliar with the Rugger so I wouldn't have noticed grip style subtleties that would make it very different from the Khyber Knife. Blush Big Grin )

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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Rugger ?         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
It looks like a Rugger: a long knife popular in south german areas. It could be as old as first half of 16th C, but that is difficult to say. The Rugger is related to the Hauswehr and Bauernwehr knife types.
This is one of the shapes the Late meadieval weapon-knife can take. .


Hi Peter...and Jean.....
I havent heard of the "Rugger" knife before...... I Googled it and looked it up in Dictionary.com but only got a reference to "Football'" ( how unusual !!! WTF?! ) I have got some references on the Hauswher and the Bauernwehr .....( not that I can fathom much of the differences between them ) ........can you or anyone help explain what is now three types of German peasant knife, esp as they most probably relate to the knife of this topic. Any pics would be helpful to explain the differences too. Information on these seems very hard to come by ( like a lot of similar topics like the Irish Skean !) ....perhaps theres a book you could recommend ?
Thanks and cheers !

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Rechinul Ro





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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hello people ,

thankyou for the information but still i haven`t found over the internet some specifications about this sword , and even google cand`t help me Sad

i`m so sad Worried
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Rechinul Ro





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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

some informations about the sword :

the sword was found during excavations in Poiana Brasov - Romania and was restaured by a master blacksmith. it was derusted and received an antler handle , the sword was treated with a special lacquer to prevent it from rusting. I want to sell it so I'm eager to find out more details about the sword, its age determination, its probable users ( whether it's an army sword).
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are examples of these knives from the Swiss Landesmuseum in Zürich

I attach three Rugger. Note the long narrow pointy blade and simple hilt. Components can vary a little, but they are all mounted by basically the same principles: pomel cap and two sturdy plates or bars forming the collar towards the blade. My impression is that later examples has a longer "neck" on this collar. There is normally also a "nagel" or nuckle bar-lug.
The blade can be thick in the spine and the cross section is triangular. It seems some examples are thinner and slightly wider. Some have a narrow fuller or grove along the back.

I also attach two images of knives that may be called Hauswehr or bauernwehr. I am under the impression that the more ornate types usually are called Bauernwehr, but that the two names are interchangeable. They denote sturdy knives that can duble as weapons, but are carried as big utility knives. Quite like bowie knives. They commonly came in scabbard with by-knives and steels. (This seems to have been the case for Ruggers as well)

In Swedish medieval texts a knife type weapon is sometimes named as a "Ryting". I think that a big personal knife like the Rugger or a big version of the Bauernwher is meant. I don´t know for sure, however.

I hope some one else would post on this and confirm or provide more detailed info. The terms and names for these knives are not always clear in litterature. The Rugger seems to be quite distinct from the Hauswehr/auernwehr knives hovever.
A Rugger has a length like that of a short sword and is always pretty pointy.
The bauernwehr are wider in proportion and shorter. They often but not always have a clip point and are less dagger like in outline.



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Bauernwehr1113.jpg
A Bauernwehr, 16th C. Length 32 cm, width 3,7 cm.

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Hauswehr1114.jpg
A Hauswehr (?), first half 16th C. Length 33,5 cm, width 3,2 cm

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A Rugger, second half 15th C. Length 56,5 cm, width 3 cm. [ Download ]

 Attachment: 51.05 KB
Another Rugger, about 1500. Length (broken) 56,5 cm, width 6 cm.
(I wonder if this one might not actually qualify as a Grossemesser of the sword type?)
[ Download ]

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A third Rugger, first half 16th C. Length67,8 cm, width 4,1 cm. [ Download ]
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Rechinul Ro





Joined: 27 Aug 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I hope some one else would post on this and confirm or provide more detailed info


i hope so .....

please if you know something about this sword/knife please post your opinion


thankyou
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Rechinul Ro





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PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

new informations ?

Idea Cry
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 3:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rechinul Ro wrote:
new informations ?

Idea Cry


Perhaps you could supply some more details on the knife and some good quality photographs of both overall shape and details, like hiltparts and blade showing thickness and section. Perhaps some measurements? Weight? Width? Length of grip and blade? Thickness and width of blade? Cross section of blade? Blade markings? Surface condition: patina and pitting? Find context?
More details might spark more information.
Wink Cool
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A very curious feature is the fuller bifurcating at the beginning of the blade.

Look well at this pic. Quite puzzling, isn't it?

http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im000609lf1.jpg
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Matthias F.





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PostPosted: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On the first look I would say it is a kind of Bauernwehr (it looks quite like one in the collection of a friend of mine; maybe I manage to take some pictures and post them).

But the location it was found isn't exactly Southern Germany *g*. Although there were many 'German' cities in Transylvania during that time, which could explain the similar design, it could also be an Hungarian or even Turkish influenced weapon.

On the other hand: most weapon type classifications were established by modern researchers and you can't expect every antique weapon to fit into them.
A war knife is a down-to-earth design that appears in many cultures. So maybe you weapon is just one of many local types.
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Jeff Demetrick





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PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Rechinul,

I can't tell for sure from the photo's, but, it looks like a shortened backsword blade. This style with a single posterior fuller was indeed seen from the 17th to 19th centuries, usually manufactered in Solingen. Is there any marks of any kind? I have posted a English baskethilt with a similar complete blade here; http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=twysden .

Nice find.
Jeff
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am personally inclined to think it is a Khyber knife, there are a lot of these things around and their age ranges from the 18th century right up to the present:

I had a look on the Oriental Arms website and I found about half a dozen, I've selected a few to show here, click on the links please:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=937
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2600
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1431
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=130

How it came to be buried in Rumania is another matter...
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Jeff Demetrick





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Hisham,

Almost by definition the Khyber knife has a raised back edge so that in cross section the blade makes a "T". I can't tell from the pictures, but this blade seem to have a posterior fuller rather than the T spine? The grip bolster is similar though. Is it original or part of the "handle" replacement?. I will attach one of my khybers for comparison.
Rechinul, better pictures may help clear this up.

All the best
Jeff



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Chris Goerner




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't believe it is a khyber either. Khybers tend to have a hilt that is in line with the extreme back of the blade. The tang on the blade in question is too close to the middle of the blade.

My money is on a 17th/ early 18th century hunting sword. I have seen several with similarly shaped blades, with and without fullers. The bolster and pommel cap are consistent with extant examples, including this one I found in the myArmoury album.



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Sic Semper Tyranus
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Shayan G





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm positive I see a T spine, for what it's worth. 100%. I know zilch about khyber/rugger/hunting swords but it certainly has the T spine.

And on closer scrutiny, the hilt is closer to the T spine than the edge. Slightly, but unmistakable as well.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shayan G wrote:
I'm positive I see a T spine, for what it's worth. 100%. I know zilch about khyber/rugger/hunting swords but it certainly has the T spine.

And on closer scrutiny, the hilt is closer to the T spine than the edge. Slightly, but unmistakable as well.


We need better pictures and also some pictures at an angle to judge the thickness of the back of the sword/knife to see if it's just a fuller near the back of the blade or a wide T shaped section: Without the T shape it's probably something NOT a Khyber Knife but functionally it does seem like a similar design to the Khyber Knife. The problem is that this type of sword/knife seems to occur at different times and regions and differ mostly in aesthetic and construction details, so without better photographs it's very difficult to rule out different possibilities.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Rechinul Ro





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hello

i will post the pictures in maximum 2 hours , sorry for waiting , i have`n been home in the last week Sad
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