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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject: Longbow archers.         Reply with quote

Hello people.
I have seen many movies showing archers wielding their arrows in that cilindrical package (In spanish it is carcaj, please, someone tell me its English name) in their back... but, Was it historically accurate?
I have seen some longbow archers carring their arrows in that bag, but tied to their belts, slunging just like a sword. How common this was?

Thanks

P.D.
Still when longbows saw action and how long their arrows used to be?



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English longbow archer woodcut.jpg


¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My understanding is that English archers did not use quivers in battle until the early 16th century. Previously the arrows were carried in large bags while on the march, in battle the archer would usually thrust the arrows in the earth in front of him or just stuff them through his belt.

AFAIK the English first started using "longbows" in large numbers in the late 13th century and continued using them until the mid-16th century.
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

during the war of the roses i believe most paintings show arrows in bags. sometimes put thru the waist belt. i know of no quivers on teh backs. now there are cross bow bolt quivers that hang of fthe waist as well. some are made of cat skins Wink
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did they skined cats while alive?!







Is possible to use a longbow from horseback? Like Samurai?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yes, i do believe during teh WOR they had mounted archers. its been a lil while but i'll check my osprey on longbowman or my Great warbow books etc jsut to be sure/.
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
Joined: 06 Mar 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many of the english archers in the HYW were mounted, but used as mounted infantry, so they never shot from horseback (at least we don't have any evidences to support that)
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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The japanese long bow has one obvious difference, in that it is held closer to the bottom of the bow, not in the middle. My understanding is that this makes it less awkward to handle when riding.
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sincerely i didn´t liked archers, but having seen how many force they needed to shot thos bows, i have to admit that they were more powerful that they looked like.
I have forgotten the different proportion of the magnificent Yummi.
Another question, How common was for the longbow archer to carry a sword?

Anyway, maybe i´m asking too much, but if anyone have any ilustration or woodcut of longbow archers of the 15 or 16 century (Better 16 century), i would be very grateful if you share them.
Mostly to see their shooting position, and how the bag/ quiver hangs from the hip belt. (Thanks Hisham for the ¨quiver¨ Wink )

Thank you very much.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think I have any pictures of 16th century archers, but I do have pictures of late 15th century archers:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...wsbury.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...fantry.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys..._01_BW.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...Colour.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...men_03.jpg
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

correct me if I am wrong but is a quiver not just a long bag for arrows?

I have heard of some bags having frames of wicker used for the WOTR;s

RPM
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Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Mostly to see their shooting position


It is actually rather difficult to determine how an archer shoots from looking at the medieval art of the period, because what you are looking at is the artist's interpretation of how an archer shot.

However, if you look at someone today who can shoot a heavy war bow, you can match their body positions to archers in paintings - and also see where the artist has misinterpreted

For example:



Notice in this painting, the archer appears to be standing cross-legged (obviously, a pretty bad way to shoot a bow).

But then take this picture of me shooting (115lb bow):



Notice how easy it could be to see this image and think I've got my legs crossed! Remember, the artist would paint what they saw. If you saw me from another angle, my shooting technique looks nothing like the archer in the painting.

If you are shooting, and you don't look like the images in the paintings then you are probably doing it wrong (that's the short answer, without going into the bio-mechanics of how the medieval draw works)
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Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
How common was for the longbow archer to carry a sword?


Archers nearly always carried swords. (By the 14th century or so, at least.) Swords were for everyone.
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A question about quivers...
Where do you think it is best to carry the quivers? In the back, or in the hip´s belt?
How the hip belts for quivers were?
I ask because ilustrtions usually show both ways, and i really i have some doubts about that.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
correct me if I am wrong but is a quiver not just a long bag for arrows?

I have heard of some bags having frames of wicker used for the WOTR;s

RPM


Except bags were just left lying on the ground, where as a quiver was suspended from the belt. Happy
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is an period example (Bayeux Tapestry) showing both a back quiver and a hip quiver. So they were both certainly used. I know this is alittle earlier than you asked, but it shows they were both in use atleast as early as the 11th C.


A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham,

I do not think that entirely true. You could easily take the quiver off your belt and set it on the ground if you wished. You could likely do the same with one at your shoulder or saddle as well. My view is it has become much more seperate as a term in our time than theirs. a quiver is still a bag or container full of arrows or bolts or something of that nature. The definition by merriam-webster:

Main Entry: 1quiv·er
Pronunciation: 'kwi-v&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French quivre, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English cocer quiver, Old High German kohhari
1 : a case for carrying or holding arrows
2 : the arrows in a quiver

So the use of it is completely linked to what is in it not any other aspect. If it has arrows in it, it is a quiver. If the arrows are inside a bag it is a quiver, of arrows. The word itself comes from anglo-norman or old english so likely is of some antiquity or it would not be derived from those languages but a more modern version.

Glennan is that from this weekend?

Cheers!

RPM
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Glennan,

Your bow looks very nice and it is refreshing to hear/see a bow with a more correct draw weight when compared to the vast majority of bows that pull from 30-50 ibs.

Did you make that bow yourself if not where did you get it?

Thanks,
Jeremy
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Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
Joined: 23 Aug 2006

Posts: 289

PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The bow was made by Pip Bickerstaffe about 3 years ago. It's a laminate of Osage, Satinwood and Hickory.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
How common was for the longbow archer to carry a sword?


The classic longbowmen of the Hundred Years' War and the Wars of the Roses (mid-14th to late 15th century) usually carried a sword and buckler each. It was the trademark of their profession--highly competent missile troops who could also handle hand-to-hand fighting with a much better chance of survival than most other archers of the time.


Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
Where do you think it is best to carry the quivers? In the back, or in the hip´s belt?


What do I think? Personally i find hip quivers more convenient, but--unlike a back-mounted scabbard--a back quiver is still a practical solution to the problem of carrying arrows around. Of course, the longbowmen's approach of simply sticking their arrows into the ground is also a valid one as long as the ground is not too hard or too grainy (sandy?).
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Matthew D





Joined: 29 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like my hip quiver but the back quiver would have the advantage of holding more arrows at one given time.. just don't bend over Big Grin
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