Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


Please help our efforts with a donation. It's time to pay our annual server hosting bill. We've collected 2710.00 towards our goal of 2640 USD. View Goal Progress
Last 10 Donors: Neil Eddiford, Chad Arnow, Jean Thibodeau, Robert Morgan, Adam Rose, Jerry Otahal, Michael P. Smith, Mikko Kuusirati, Eric Bergeron, Daniel Staberg (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Attacks made to the legs in longsword fencing Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next 
Author Message
Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 336

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Attacks made to the legs in longsword fencing         Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I had a discussion with one of my instructors, concerning attacks made to the legs. He was under the impressions that, in longsword fencing, according to the german and italian traditions of the 14th-15th centuries, no attacks were supposed to be made to the legs, for it could be to easily defeated by a scheitelhau. He is, however, as I am (since he's my instructor, I think it's not surprising that I share his point of view), convinced that attacks made to the legs shall not be dismissed once distance has been closed, as a riposte or as a second or third attack..

I did some research on this forum but could not find an answer to my question, which is : is it right to attack to the legs, according to the masters (did we miss something) ? If not, is it right (meaning, efficient), according to you, from the point of view of your own practical experience, while fighting in earnest (like the Arma guys says) ? Okay, that's two questions. Wink

I'm trying to keep an open mind there. I have a bias concerning this issue, of course, but what I really want is to learn. And hopefully become a little less stupid. Laughing Out Loud

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Attacks made to the legs in longsword fencing         Reply with quote

My take: once at the bind or otherwise in Krieg ("in your face" range), why attack the legs? Why not the head or upper body? If you don't want to kill him, disarm or throw him.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Attacks made to the legs in longsword fencing         Reply with quote

Hugo Voisine wrote:
Hi everyone,

I had a discussion with one of my instructors, concerning attacks made to the legs. He was under the impressions that, in longsword fencing, according to the german and italian traditions of the 14th-15th centuries, no attacks were supposed to be made to the legs, for it could be to easily defeated by a scheitelhau. He is, however, as I am (since he's my instructor, I think it's not surprising that I share his point of view), convinced that attacks made to the legs shall not be dismissed once distance has been closed, as a riposte or as a second or third attack..

I did some research on this forum but could not find an answer to my question, which is : is it right to attack to the legs, according to the masters (did we miss something) ? If not, is it right (meaning, efficient), according to you, from the point of view of your own practical experience, while fighting in earnest (like the Arma guys says) ? Okay, that's two questions. Wink

I'm trying to keep an open mind there. I have a bias concerning this issue, of course, but what I really want is to learn. And hopefully become a little less stupid. Laughing Out Loud


Using the Scheitelhau to defeat a leg attack is called an Uberlauffen, and it is a very, very effective technique; so much so that some folks argue you should never attack the legs.

If you read Doebringer's Hausbuch, however, you'll learn there are times they can be attacked. In his discussion of plays from the Zornhau, Doebringer (well, whomever wrote the text--I think the debates on the subject are pointless) says that if you wind and your opponent defends against it then:
"If he defends against your thrust
then throw and strike quickly below and
you will hit him in the legs." (Doebringer, MS 3227a fol. 23v)

So here's a situation where you're obviously fairly close (because this is after the Zufechten) and your opponent is in a situation where he can't Uberlauffen, so the text says to attack low--specifically, to the legs. This makes sense and seems as though it would be safe because of the special circumstances. The bottom line seems to be never to attack the legs in the Zufechten, nor, indeed, with a Vorschlag, but that in the Krieg doing so can occasionally have value.

Just as a cautionary note, even though this seems to make sense, and in practice it works well enough, I should point out that where Doebringer says to attack the legs, other sources (e.g., Ringeck) merely say to attack a lower target--which means one of the low quarters--and doesn't say anything about the legs at all. Moreover, some things in Doebringer are... "suspicious" is too strong a word, but he is, in several places, at variance with other sources in the Liechtenauer tradition, so we can't just take everything he writes at face value because we don't know if he was writing in error or if his writings represent a very early and somewhat different approach to fencing than that of later authors.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Attacks made to the legs in longsword fencing         Reply with quote

Hugo

Regardless of the Scheitelhau, the legs can and should be attacked when sparring with longsword. Leg attacks have always been a major component of sparring in ARMA. In the near future video of recent ARMA Senior Free Scholar prizeplay matches should be avaible and I am sure you will see lots of leg attacks.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
View user's profile Send private message
Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree that historically, attacks to legs do not appear to have been strongly encouraged by masters as a primary tactic.

However, examinations of mass battle grave remains and historical accounts of duels indicates that legs were in fact attacked at least some of the time in battle and in judicial duels. There is a fair quality ARMA article on the subject and historical basis for believing legs were targeted at least in some cases. http://www.thearma.org/essays/LegWounds.htm

If targeting of legs is mixed in infrequently as a surprise tactic in sparring when both opponents are expecting primarily upper body targets, I have found that I generally succeed in hitting much more skilled teachers legs while escaping unscathed. I think it is one of those things that you might do infrequently, if "good conditions" for it just happened to be right. A wounded leg, cut tenons in the knee joint or calve are serious wounds to my way of thinking. For me, success seems to require reserving it as an occasional surprise tactic. Similar in nature, but even easier than a Krumphau, a downward diagonal strike made when an attacker can see they have beaten the timing of their opponent can be subtly changed while stepping off line such that the back side of an opponent's thigh, knee joint, or calve is easily struck. It is not that difficult to quickly raise the sword in a "hangen" guard like position or even duck under a Krone -like guard while stepping out of it. One might even achieve contact with some tentative binding before the strike lands somewhere on the back side of leg targets.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
View user's profile Send private message
Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 336

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input.

Hugh : I'll take a look at Doebringer. Honestly I haven't paid much attention to him until now, I still have to get a better grip on Liechtenauer... I have began with Talhoffer and Vadi, instead of Liechtenauer and de Liberi, which isn't necessarily the best idea, but well... Anyway, from what I understand, what Doebringer says is that strikes to the leg can be useful, but in a very limited way ? Maybe we (my group) found that strikes to the legs are effective because we don't have enough grasp on the mastercuts. I'll try to take that into consideration.

Randall : I'm eager to see this new video. I found Arma's videos to be very instructive and fun. Happy

Michael : well, I think the more different actions I can do in a certain situation, the better. Plus, I think that attacking the legs is probably as lethal as striking the arms or hands... Maybe not immediately, but it surely can end the fight.

Jared : yes, the surprise factor in real-life combat is often determining, I have to agree with that. I have found myself beaten a good number of times, I think, because I relied to much on leg attacks and other attacks that maybe should be reserved for "special occasions".

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
View user's profile Send private message
Anders Nilsson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Reading list: 4 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In Talhoffer 1467 there is a plate showing a attack against the oponents ledaing leg with a onehanded whipping attack. I have used this with great effect several times. I start with the high guard, threating my oponent until he raises his sword, then I snap out with the sword in my left hand, aiming for his leading leg. If your oponent is unfamiliar with that attack it usually work.
To counter this I ussually raise my leding foot over my oponents attacking blade and, strike him in the head.
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are clearly leg attacks in the German longsword tradition, but they represent probably around %5 or less of technique, with a strong bias towards head and breast attacks and the hands secondary. The legs are low on the list of target preference. Specifically because of how well the uberlauffen principle works, and also because head, breast and hand attacks are more likely to end a fight quickly. Sure, cutting my hamstrings is bad, but I may still land a hit to your head before I fall down.

Ringeck describes the technique that Hugh mentions and specifies a low target, as Hugh noted. However, Ringeck's low target is below the belt so he is referring to upper leg targets, bladder, groin etc.

Randall-
I am curious how the ARMA Senior Free Scholar prizeplay matches are done. Previous video I've seen have shown players bouting without headgear. I suspect that the absence of headgear will create a bias against using the uberlauffen principle fully. And ultimately how sure can you be of your interpretation if you include many more leg attacks than are described in period sources?

To my knowledge, the research showing a significant number of leg wounds stems mostly from graves in an era when large shields were still common. The large shield leaves only the legs and head as easy targets which is commensurate with the wounds found. The uberlauffen principle does not work as well against a large shield.

Respectfully,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Nilsson wrote:
In Talhoffer 1467 there is a plate showing a attack against the oponents ledaing leg with a onehanded whipping attack. I have used this with great effect several times. I start with the high guard, threating my oponent until he raises his sword, then I snap out with the sword in my left hand, aiming for his leading leg. If your oponent is unfamiliar with that attack it usually work.
To counter this I ussually raise my leding foot over my oponents attacking blade and, strike him in the head.


What you've described here is known as das Gayszlen and it's probably one of the most effective ways of attacking to the legs. When applied properly with special knowledge from the fechtbücher, it can be very difficult to counter it, even with a scheitelhaw. This technique was used reasonably frequently in Aaron Pynenberg's prize playing.
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Anders Nilsson wrote:
In Talhoffer 1467 there is a plate showing a attack against the oponents ledaing leg with a onehanded whipping attack. I have used this with great effect several times. I start with the high guard, threating my oponent until he raises his sword, then I snap out with the sword in my left hand, aiming for his leading leg. If your oponent is unfamiliar with that attack it usually work.
To counter this I ussually raise my leding foot over my oponents attacking blade and, strike him in the head.


What you've described here is known as das Gayszlen and it's probably one of the most effective ways of attacking to the legs. When applied properly with special knowledge from the fechtbücher, it can be very difficult to counter it, even with a scheitelhaw. This technique was used reasonably frequently in Aaron Pynenberg's prize playing.



An easy way to "counter" it would be to not hover in the zufechten without attacking.

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
Randall-
I am curious how the ARMA Senior Free Scholar prizeplay matches are done. Previous video I've seen have shown players bouting without headgear. I suspect that the absence of headgear will create a bias against using the uberlauffen principle fully. And ultimately how sure can you be of your interpretation if you include many more leg attacks than are described in period sources?


Steve,

At the second ARMA International Gathering, everyone was required to wear some sort of head protection for the prize playing. This meant that concepts such as überlauffen could be applied much more fully without worrying about causing serious injury. As for the latter part of your question, this is something I have contemplated myself (though not exactly in the terms you've used here). What I've wondered is why the Scheitelhaw is described as the vier versetzen for Alber. While it certainly can break the low guard, it's not as sure as something like a Zwerchhaw against Vom Tach. Indeed, someone who is good at fighting from Alber can quickly launch low cuts or thrusts which can hit their opponent before he can reach them. So I think this is certainly something that needs to be explored further, since at the moment we seem to be able to hit the legs quite effectively, when the masters suggest that doing so is a hazardous proposition.
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 4:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Craig Peters wrote:
Anders Nilsson wrote:
In Talhoffer 1467 there is a plate showing a attack against the oponents ledaing leg with a onehanded whipping attack. I have used this with great effect several times. I start with the high guard, threating my oponent until he raises his sword, then I snap out with the sword in my left hand, aiming for his leading leg. If your oponent is unfamiliar with that attack it usually work.
To counter this I ussually raise my leding foot over my oponents attacking blade and, strike him in the head.


What you've described here is known as das Gayszlen and it's probably one of the most effective ways of attacking to the legs. When applied properly with special knowledge from the fechtbücher, it can be very difficult to counter it, even with a scheitelhaw. This technique was used reasonably frequently in Aaron Pynenberg's prize playing.



An easy way to "counter" it would be to not hover in the zufechten without attacking.


Not quite so easy as you think Michael. I think you missed a portion of what I wrote above. Wink
View user's profile Send private message
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
At the second ARMA International Gathering, everyone was required to wear some sort of head protection for the prize playing. This meant that concepts such as überlauffen could be applied much more fully without worrying about causing serious injury. As for the latter part of your question, this is something I have contemplated myself (though not exactly in the terms you've used here). What I've wondered is why the Scheitelhaw is described as the vier versetzen for Alber. While it certainly can break the low guard, it's not as sure as something like a Zwerchhaw against Vom Tach. Indeed, someone who is good at fighting from Alber can quickly launch low cuts or thrusts which can hit their opponent before he can reach them. So I think this is certainly something that needs to be explored further, since at the moment we seem to be able to hit the legs quite effectively, when the masters suggest that doing so is a hazardous proposition.


The reason the Unterhau from Alber seems so effective agaisnt the Sheitelhau is that people haven't thought it through. In my opinion, the only time to use the Vier Versetzen (and *especially* Sheitelhau against Alber) is just as someone moves into guard. When you look at them that way, the Vier Versetzen work phenomenally well. That's one of the best things about the Scheitelhau Versetzen: It teaches you this concept.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Attacks made to the legs in longsword fencing         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Hugo

Regardless of the Scheitelhau, the legs can and should be attacked when sparring with longsword. Leg attacks have always been a major component of sparring in ARMA. In the near future video of recent ARMA Senior Free Scholar prizeplay matches should be avaible and I am sure you will see lots of leg attacks.


I have *no* doubt whatsoever that ARMA fencers use lots of leg attacks. You, however, have provided no documentation as to why and when to do so from primary source material.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org


Last edited by Hugh Knight on Sun 26 Aug, 2007 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
I agree that historically, attacks to legs do not appear to have been strongly encouraged by masters as a primary tactic.

However, examinations of mass battle grave remains and historical accounts of duels indicates that legs were in fact attacked at least some of the time in battle and in judicial duels. There is a fair quality ARMA article on the subject and historical basis for believing legs were targeted at least in some cases. http://www.thearma.org/essays/LegWounds.htm

If targeting of legs is mixed in infrequently as a surprise tactic in sparring when both opponents are expecting primarily upper body targets, I have found that I generally succeed in hitting much more skilled teachers legs while escaping unscathed. I think it is one of those things that you might do infrequently, if "good conditions" for it just happened to be right. A wounded leg, cut tenons in the knee joint or calve are serious wounds to my way of thinking. For me, success seems to require reserving it as an occasional surprise tactic. Similar in nature, but even easier than a Krumphau, a downward diagonal strike made when an attacker can see they have beaten the timing of their opponent can be subtly changed while stepping off line such that the back side of an opponent's thigh, knee joint, or calve is easily struck. It is not that difficult to quickly raise the sword in a "hangen" guard like position or even duck under a Krone -like guard while stepping out of it. One might even achieve contact with some tentative binding before the strike lands somewhere on the back side of leg targets.


If you look at the sources described in that essay, you'll find that almost all of them reflect either: A: Armored combat, in which you're safer to attack the legs because your armor is so effective, and the Fechtbücher are clear as to the value of doing so. B: Sword & buckler or sword and shield or rapier and dagger fights in which the secondary system (buckler, shield or dagger) makes it safe to attack the legs--again, there are plenty of example of this in the Fechtbücher, e.g., Lignitzer's plays of the buckler. C: fighters rendered otherwise helpless.

Since the question asked referred to unarmored longsword, none of these apply.

Certainly we could invent new ways of fencing in which techniques are developed for attacking legs (and the picture Craig refers to in Talhoffer 1467 might--*might*--represent one such; then again, it's just as likely it represent the way the attacker's point drops as his opponent's step allows him to void the attack). For my part, however, I think we should stick to documentable medieval practices or else what we do has no meaning.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Craig Peters wrote:
Anders Nilsson wrote:
In Talhoffer 1467 there is a plate showing a attack against the oponents ledaing leg with a onehanded whipping attack. I have used this with great effect several times. I start with the high guard, threating my oponent until he raises his sword, then I snap out with the sword in my left hand, aiming for his leading leg. If your oponent is unfamiliar with that attack it usually work.
To counter this I ussually raise my leding foot over my oponents attacking blade and, strike him in the head.


What you've described here is known as das Gayszlen and it's probably one of the most effective ways of attacking to the legs. When applied properly with special knowledge from the fechtbücher, it can be very difficult to counter it, even with a scheitelhaw. This technique was used reasonably frequently in Aaron Pynenberg's prize playing.



An easy way to "counter" it would be to not hover in the zufechten without attacking.


Quite so, Michael. Well said.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugo Voisine wrote:
Hugh : I'll take a look at Doebringer. Honestly I haven't paid much attention to him until now, I still have to get a better grip on Liechtenauer... I have began with Talhoffer and Vadi, instead of Liechtenauer and de Liberi, which isn't necessarily the best idea, but well... Anyway, from what I understand, what Doebringer says is that strikes to the leg can be useful, but in a very limited way ? Maybe we (my group) found that strikes to the legs are effective because we don't have enough grasp on the mastercuts. I'll try to take that into consideration.


Hi Hugo,

I really urge you to do so. While I am suspicious (I wouldn't call it doubt, just healthy suspicion) of specific *techniques* in Doebringer, his tactical concepts are, in my opnion, essential to understanding der Kunst des Fechtens. Hell, until I read Doebringer I was doing the Oberhau completely wrong, and that's a "big thing"; the subtle concpets in there keep me awake nights.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
The reason the Unterhau from Alber seems so effective agaisnt the Sheitelhau is that people haven't thought it through. In my opinion, the only time to use the Vier Versetzen (and *especially* Sheitelhau against Alber) is just as someone moves into guard. When you look at them that way, the Vier Versetzen work phenomenally well. That's one of the best things about the Scheitelhau Versetzen: It teaches you this concept.


Indeed Hugh, and there are a couple of other concerns at play here too. First, the driving high with the hands tends to draw a response that a) falls slightly short and b) gets there too quickly. The latter can be seen in Leckuchner's messer equivalent of this stroke, the Geferhau, where in the plate the defender is shown doing a 'swing and a miss'. The high orientation of the hands is also almost no one does correctly, until they're showed how in person.

I agree completely regarding the opponent coming into the guard. A variant of this principle applies once they have remained there too long; the body's natural 'relaxation response' can then prove their undoing.

There's been a lot of electronic ink spilled over the Scheitelhau and why and how it works, with some even insisting this is an easily defeated attack. This, naturally, would beg the question: why does Liechtenauer laud its use and why is its sole purpose the defeating of Alber? The answer, even more naturally, is that when you understand tempo and measure correctly, it works like a charm.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig,

Voiding with the leg is trivially easy to do. This is why the attacks to the leg are advised only once you have closed from the Zufechten. From the Krieg, you can switch from high to low targets without the geometric advantage of distant high attacks becoming debilitating.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I spent far too long on an SFI thread debating the scheitelhau against alber, and have lost years of my life off of it, so I'm not going to dwell too much here. Anyone who wants to bleed out their eyes on the world's most boring thread, search for that discussion over there. Happy But my main thoughts on the matter:

The scheitelhau is a threat to the scalp and breast. Meaning that moving away from the attack can still end up with a thrust through the chest due the way the strike is done. So cutting up with the false edge while stepping back is not impossible, but it is not a very safe thing to do against a sharpened blade, even if you hit the person first.

Furthermore, the vast majority of the WMA community (myself included) tend to telegraph too much when attacking. It's really evident in basically every video I've seen online of longsword free fencing (again, myself included). I think this is key in performing a successful scheitel against alber. In fact, it's key for breaking any of the guards in first intention with any of the strikes, which I rarely see done in online videos, either.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Attacks made to the legs in longsword fencing
Page 1 of 4 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum