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Arizona Coleman





Joined: 10 Nov 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 31 Jul, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: internet information on the manufacture of armour         Reply with quote

Why is information so lacking on the internet for manufacturing armour? I mean....sure....I've looked at the armour archive, bladeturner armoury, and arador, plus other little tutorials on this....but have never seen any information with real "meat". For example, where do you find information on how to make pauldrons with the extended back wings? Or how to raise the components for a fingered gauntlet? Or even the different fluting techniques one would use on differnet parts of the harness. I have done MANY surches ( and in the process found out how idiotic search engines REALY are ) and have found so few DYI articles that it makes me sick. Surely there must be SOMEONE out there who can point me in the direction of new information and articles. I have even found some on youtube.com that I found intreaguing. Please help this budding armourer?
Man is the ore....it is the fire of life and the flux of his spirit that smelts him into what he becomes....
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might start here:
http://www.armourarchive.org/

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


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PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The unfortunate reality is that the Internet is severely lacking of quality, detailed information on any and all subjects related to arms and armour. myArmoury.com and sites like it only scratch the surface and are no substitute for true scholarship on the subject. Speaking only of this site, we are well aware of our place as a "Reader's Digest" for enthusiasts. If nothing else, we try to whet the appetite for more information. It simply isn't within our ability or means to produce original research on the subjects we cover. This isn't unique to us. The fact is that well-researched information on the construction of armour is only really available in published works. Other information, such as the modern recreation of armour, is often in the hands and minds of today's makers. Neither of these groups--authors/publishers, and modern-day armourers--are generally Internet publishers. Even with the means to put the information on the 'net, one might ask how they'd benefit by doing so. If anything, it would seem to be a financially unwise route to take.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the best I've found:

http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/index.html

You'll find the gothic knees tutorial especially helpful for your specific projects. Fluting is covered there as well.

I certainly hope you start making helmets and hang out your professional shingle as "Raising Arizona".

I bet that was funny the first fifty times you heard it, huh?

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Arizona Coleman





Joined: 10 Nov 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well Hugh....armourarchive is one of the places Ive already been, sry. I just forgot to place it on my list. Nathan, I'm guessing you have this book? If so....how good is it? Sean...lmao...I may have to do that! In that respect, the first project I have is a reproduction of a coppergate helm. Thanks for all the help people...if there are anymore suggestions by any future readers of this thread....please post them!
Man is the ore....it is the fire of life and the flux of his spirit that smelts him into what he becomes....
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Peter Fuller
Industry Professional



Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 13 Nov 2005

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try the following:

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=873

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1539

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1225
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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Posts: 936

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.php?ASIN=1581605366
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Arizona Coleman





Joined: 10 Nov 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok....just thought of this. Once upon a time I found a PDF manual on beginning armouring. It started out with shop safety, then moved on to making your own equipment and choices thereof, then went into such things as riviting, and then patterns and step by step manufacturing techniques on basic parts of a complete harness of plate. I remember clearly it had two or three different methods of making a crusade period great helm.... Does this jog the memmory of anyone out there?
Man is the ore....it is the fire of life and the flux of his spirit that smelts him into what he becomes....
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Grzegorz Kulig
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 22 Mar 2007

Posts: 98

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arizona Coleman -

Guys gave you examples of very good books, where you can learn many things about armouring. But you seem to keep interesting in only internet informations. Confused
In my opinion internet can learn only a bit about everything, not only making armours. The best sources are books.
When I started making armours I hadn't access to internet. Everything what I learnt was from the books and from experiments. Years of experiments! Nothing can learn you more about armouring, than trying everything by yourself, of course having before some knowledge from books and museums, about historical technique of producing - this is also the cause of lacking information in the internet. Wink Two young guys are coming to my workshop and I learn them a bit. Even they have me as a teacher, it is very difficult for them to make good piece without practice. :!


One more thing : many sites about making armours are really bad sources and give false informations - for example I have seen many wrong made patterns. By the way - I have never used any pattern - I am making it by my own, looking at many photos of original items - I just see how it was made from the photos. If you want to make good replicas you should proceed this direction. I have also seen many sites with informations only for making armours of mild steel and "on cold" (without heat forging), showing elements welded , where there shouldn't be weldings, showing using machines shaping the steel etc. etc.
Those are wrong informations, one shouldn't learn those wrong techniques, if one wants to make armours correctly. In my opinion there is big mistake, that those sites exist, but in internet you can do what you want. Wink

I respect armourers who show on their sites, how to make armours properly. I don't have time for that. Wink

Conclusion : read books, look at photos of original armours, go to museums, and : practice, practice, and practice. And make experiments. Wink

Greetings,
Thorkil.

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R Smith




Location: MI
Joined: 09 Nov 2004

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You should check out Brian Price's book "Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction" available at the following website: http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VI...ProdID=70.
I have heard many good things about this.
However, I would not expect that many armourers are going to just give away all their hard won techniques especially if making armour is their bread and butter! It just wouldn't stand to reason that someone would give that to possible competition. Perhaps if there were one close to you they would take you on as an apprentice or even be willing to teach you if you were willing to help out in their shop.

"Those with wisdom loathe the one forced to defend." - Liechtenauer

Ars Gladii
Detroit, MI
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Chris Arrington





Joined: 06 Apr 2007

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dabble in armour myself. Nothing I would show to the world, but I dabble Wink So far I have a whole bucket full of useless mangled scrap metal.

The TOMAR book up a few posts is a nice place to start.

Then I also recommend Peter Fullers armouring video that he posted his link too. Very nice. Helps you decipher the basics in TOMAR, with real world examples on the video.

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=873

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1539

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1225
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.livesteelarmor.com/ Razz

Warning this site is run by a loon but makes for a good laugh.

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Arizona Coleman





Joined: 10 Nov 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My good man Kulig, I really do appreciate the resources that these other fine armourers are providing me....why I keep asking for internet information is for one reason and one reason only....IT'S FREE FOR THE TAKING! I am a young person (god I wish I FELT that way lol) raising two children with out the benefit of their mother (God rest) and at this time must do my research as cheaply as possible. Truly, I am not interested in patterns, they are more difficult to work with then just going off the measurements of the person you are making them for. Right not I have nothing with which to heat metal ....so any work I do would have to be done cold, and I have produced a pair of not too bad looking spaulders with that method.

long days and pleasant nights

Man is the ore....it is the fire of life and the flux of his spirit that smelts him into what he becomes....
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Nathan Keysor




Location: WV
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 255

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doug Strong's sight:
www.talbotsfineaccessories.com
has pamphlets, dvd's etc on different armour projects including patterns. You have to pay to download them but he doesn't charge much.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
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Arizona Coleman





Joined: 10 Nov 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Right on....this is some good, and inexpensive information here that I believe will come in handy...thanks! I also wish to thank all the other armourers who have given me hints on where to find more information.
Man is the ore....it is the fire of life and the flux of his spirit that smelts him into what he becomes....
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Grzegorz Kulig
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 22 Mar 2007

Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arizona Coleman wrote:
My good man Kulig, I really do appreciate the resources that these other fine armourers are providing me....why I keep asking for internet information is for one reason and one reason only....IT'S FREE FOR THE TAKING! I am a young person (god I wish I FELT that way lol) raising two children with out the benefit of their mother (God rest) and at this time must do my research as cheaply as possible. Truly, I am not interested in patterns, they are more difficult to work with then just going off the measurements of the person you are making them for. Right not I have nothing with which to heat metal ....so any work I do would have to be done cold, and I have produced a pair of not too bad looking spaulders with that method.

long days and pleasant nights


Dear Arizona Coleman,

First - I really understand that internet information is for free, what is important especially when you are in difficult situation.

Second - I am not old man at all, either. Wink The time I started armouring I lived in country side , that's why I hadn't access to the internet. In Poland internet became widespread only few years ago.

3rd - When I started armouring I also was in very bad material situation. I had no work, no money and was after very serious accident. I had disabled right arm (and I must say that I am right-handed person). I started with only few, old tools. I was looking at photos of original stuff and wondering how it was made and making experiments with patterns, techniques etc. I had no books about armouring, like those titles you have been told, here. I even didn't know they exist! Wink But I had some books from library with photos of armours. Soon, had some help from my friends, who had internet and I could find much more photos.

4th - I was making long time 'on cold". And it is possible to make this way almost everything, but you can't avoid welding this way in gothic couters, for example. But Exclamation I haven't said you should start heat tread steel at once. Wink I only said this is direction every armour should go into - wich means you should go into this in the future. Wink Nothing can be made at once, remember. Happy I have made my hearth (forging fire-place, I am not sure what is correct in English) by my self.

5th - Spaulders are quite easy to make without heat tread.

You have now few web sites and few books titles. You can also ask here for advice - as you probably already noticed this is a great place you can find many information and advices. I also recommend library - probably you won't find their books strictly connected with armouring, but you will get there for sure some helpful knowledge. There are some books available in PDF - ask here on forum, where you can get them.

Now, you have to get some knowledge and try to use it. It will be difficult, but also very fascinating. Happy You will make for sure many mistakes - as everyone, but please, do not choose the easiest way, but try to achieve the perfection. I am still learning new things and still making experiments with new materials and techniques and still can't tell I have learnt everything and have achieved the perfection. And I want to learn as long as I will be able to work.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Good luck in armouring!

Best wishes,
Thorkil.

P.S. Please, call me Thorkil (as everyone does), or just Greg if you prefer. Kulig is my surname. Wink

P.S.2 I really think you are lucky in USA, UK etc, as you have simply access to great books. For me it is much more difficult.

NEW ONLINE SHOP : www.thorkilshop.com

NEW ADDRESS of my web site: www.thorkil.pl

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Arizona Coleman





Joined: 10 Nov 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you so much for the vote of confidence! Hearing about your humble beginnings is a true inspiration to me and many others in my position who have/will read this. I have to ask...did you start with a dishing stump or a bag of sand or did you actually have/improvise raising stakes?

Long days and pleasant nights to you Thorkil

Man is the ore....it is the fire of life and the flux of his spirit that smelts him into what he becomes....
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Nathan Keysor




Location: WV
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 255

PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arizona Coleman wrote:
I have to ask...did you start with a dishing stump or a bag of sand or did you actually




When I first started I used a stump that I chiselled a depression into. It worked although you had to do a decent amount of planishing. Now I use steel dishing forms with a rawhide mallet which require less planishing afterward. I sink small thing like fingers in a block of lead.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
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Arizona Coleman





Joined: 10 Nov 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok thanks.... Now, I've heard that dishing thins the metal as it is formed. What would one do to construct a raising form? ....and what shape/size would I make it to form the widest array of armour components ( baring finger plates of course )?
Man is the ore....it is the fire of life and the flux of his spirit that smelts him into what he becomes....
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Nathan Keysor




Location: WV
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 255

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I haven't done any raising. I dish and weld to do helmet bowls (not historical but quick). Dishing thins it a bit depending on how deep you dish it. If you planish it afterward it really stiffens it up though. I own several different stakes for planishing/forming. They are somtimes expensive as is the stake plate that holds them. Iron Monger Armory sells stakes for a reasonable price. Their kettle stake would probably be a good one for a lot of generic forming.

http://www.ironmongerarmory.com/index.php?p=a...p;s=stakes

Depending on how much metal working experience you have I would suggest making a couple great helms or spangen helms before you try to raise one out of one piece.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
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