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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Mini XIV         Reply with quote

I just got my "New Coustille" on July 3rd. I wanted this piece because I thought it would make a great campanion dagger for the Type XIV I bought.
It was almost perfect as a companion and looks every bit as good as the Type XIV. It's going to make a very nice display.

My Brother n law tells me that "this anit no dagger! It's a very short sword!". It almost feels like it. If you have ever did any Florentine Fighting then this is the pair to do it with. Handles excellent and they are both well balanced.

If you like the Windlass Type XIV, then your going to love the Mini XIV!


Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2007 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What do you mean by "Florentine" fighting? I know of no such term.
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Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thats what they call fighting with a short and medium length weapon in the SCA, allegedly because Florentine soldiers did it at some point.

A hatchet with an arming sword, a mace with an arming sword, a short-sword like that dagesse with an arming sword, a short sword with an axe etc. would I believe be considered 'florentine'...

I think it can actually be pretty effective, some people get very good at it. Not sure if it could hold up against HEMA sword and dagger or longsword, I think the greater range differential between a sword and a dagger actually makes that combination more dangerous.

I wonder if there is anything like 'florentine' in any HEMA manual? I have never seen anything like that.

J

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

Essays on Hroarr

Introducing the Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
What do you mean by "Florentine" fighting? I know of no such term.


http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Florentine_fighter
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2006...d-two.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrgMj654cWE
http://www.bellatrix.org/school/appendix_g.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoPmeldqCvo



These links should help on this style,

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2007 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unfortunately, "Florentine" is about as historical as a Madu.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Mini XIV         Reply with quote

Gary A. Chelette wrote:
I just got my "New Coustille" on July 3rd. I wanted this piece because I thought it would make a great campanion dagger for the Type XIV I bought.
It was almost perfect as a companion and looks every bit as good as the Type XIV. It's going to make a very nice display.

My Brother n law tells me that "this anit no dagger! It's a very short sword!". It almost feels like it. If you have ever did any Florentine Fighting then this is the pair to do it with. Handles excellent and they are both well balanced.

If you like the Windlass Type XIV, then your going to love the Mini XIV!



So did you get it from Kult of Athena ? ( I think you mentioned that on some other Topic thread ? )

I don't see it on the KoA site ? Can always e-mail Ryan if/when I am interested. ( Might put this one on the short list after I recover from some really expensive dental work )

I have the Windlass anelace that is about the same size I think and I really like it.

What are the statistics on the blade ? Width, length and thickness ?

Oh, and I agree that these are at the border between large dagger and short sword, a size I really like by the way. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
Joined: 20 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
Unfortunately, "Florentine" is about as historical as a Madu.


What is madu?

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

Essays on Hroarr

Introducing the Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic
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Felix Wang




Location: Fresno, CA
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, I believe a madu is a historical weapon, whereas I do not know of any connection between modern "Florentine" two-weapon fighting and the Italian city of Firenze.

A madu is an Indian buckler-type shield, with two spikes attached; the spikes are in the plane of the shield (they don't stick out, unlike some Scottish targes) and at 180 degrees. Think of them as continuations of the grip, sticking out beyond the edge of the shield. Sometimes antelope horns were used.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First off, cool new acquisition, Gary. I have a fondness for those weapons which aren't quite daggers but aren't quite swords, either.

Now, I apologize for taking this thread even further off topic, and perhaps this topic should even be split because of it, but I wanted to address "Florentine" styled fighting. There is no historical evidence of any two-weapon fighting called "Florentine" to my knowledge, prior to circa 1970. It is a modern-made style developed for use in modern sword sports such as SCA fighting. (though there are historical two weapon styles) From what I have seen of it, it works very well within the SCA rules. The name, to the best of my knowledge, comes from an image that was passed around in Ren Fairre and SCA circles a number of years ago showing a man with rapier and dagger, and the caption read, "A Florentine." Hence the birth of the name.

Gary, you gave a few links there. One is to a video of Nova Scrimia, who are not doing Florentine, they are fencing spada y daga. I bring this up because I am quite certain the folks of Nova Scrimia would likely not care to find out people assumed they are doing the same style as what most people call Florentine. You also linked to two Kendokata who are practicing Nito-ryu. Nito-ryu is a traditional Japanese artform. I know for a fact that many Kendokata would be offended to hear this being termed as Florentine.

I don't bring this up to mince words with you, or to pick a fight, or even to point fingers. But it is sort of the equivalent of telling a licensed physician that he is doing the same thing as Reiki spiritual healing. This is not to say that one is better than the other, but it is certainly saying that there is a difference, and that to lump them together can be considered distasteful to many.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
What is madu?

Felix's description is correct. What I was saying was that a Madu would never have been found in the hands European Warrior, which is most often the context you find them in the SCA. However, the sport mentality, which emphasizes what works over whats authentic, is the root cause of both Florentine and the use of Madus in the SCA.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
However, the sport mentality, which emphasizes what works over whats authentic, is the root cause of both Florentine and the use of Madus in the SCA.


Just to add to this (and I think it's what you meant in the first place anyway, Robin) is that it isn't just that the emphasis is on what works. The emphasis is what works within the SCA rules, much in the same way modern fencing looks different from classical fencing because the techniques are designed to play to the rules rather than to recreate techniques.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Jeremiah Swanger




Location: Hershey, PA
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jul, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

*clears throat* Back to topic...

I've been looking at the MRL Coustille for some time now, as I consider it a very intriguing piece. I think I'm going to just go ahead and get one (possibly together with MRL's "Poignard") pretty soon, at least as part of a Ren Faire costume I'm trying to piece together...

Would you happen to know what the differences are between this version and the first MRL Coustille?

So far, Windlass still has a ways to go, in terms of lines, proportion, and blade geometry, but they do have a few that look really nice. I'll cite the Coustille as one example, as well as the "Italian Falchion" and their "Longsword" (the one with the side rings and waisted wire half-wrap grip). Their "Type XIV" is also pretty impressive, as the blade profile is pretty close to that of Albion's "Sherrif," complete with the brief flare a couple inches before the guard. They even make a single-hander with a Type N pommel (the boat-shaped one), which the leaders in the repro market haven't even touched yet...

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
First off, cool new acquisition, Gary. I have a fondness for those weapons which aren't quite daggers but aren't quite swords, either.

Now, I apologize for taking this thread even further off topic, and perhaps this topic should even be split because of it, but I wanted to address "Florentine" styled fighting. There is no historical evidence of any two-weapon fighting called "Florentine" to my knowledge, prior to circa 1970. It is a modern-made style developed for use in modern sword sports such as SCA fighting. (though there are historical two weapon styles) From what I have seen of it, it works very well within the SCA rules. The name, to the best of my knowledge, comes from an image that was passed around in Ren Fairre and SCA circles a number of years ago showing a man with rapier and dagger, and the caption read, "A Florentine." Hence the birth of the name.

Gary, you gave a few links there. One is to a video of Nova Scrimia, who are not doing Florentine, they are fencing spada y daga. I bring this up because I am quite certain the folks of Nova Scrimia would likely not care to find out people assumed they are doing the same style as what most people call Florentine. You also linked to two Kendokata who are practicing Nito-ryu. Nito-ryu is a traditional Japanese artform. I know for a fact that many Kendokata would be offended to hear this being termed as Florentine.

I don't bring this up to mince words with you, or to pick a fight, or even to point fingers. But it is sort of the equivalent of telling a licensed physician that he is doing the same thing as Reiki spiritual healing. This is not to say that one is better than the other, but it is certainly saying that there is a difference, and that to lump them together can be considered distasteful to many.


I know that this is a SCA type sport, it was the best I could do in explaination.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary A. Chelette wrote:
Bill Grandy wrote:
First off, cool new acquisition, Gary. I have a fondness for those weapons which aren't quite daggers but aren't quite swords, either.

Now, I apologize for taking this thread even further off topic, and perhaps this topic should even be split because of it, but I wanted to address "Florentine" styled fighting. There is no historical evidence of any two-weapon fighting called "Florentine" to my knowledge, prior to circa 1970. It is a modern-made style developed for use in modern sword sports such as SCA fighting. (though there are historical two weapon styles) From what I have seen of it, it works very well within the SCA rules. The name, to the best of my knowledge, comes from an image that was passed around in Ren Fairre and SCA circles a number of years ago showing a man with rapier and dagger, and the caption read, "A Florentine." Hence the birth of the name.

Gary, you gave a few links there. One is to a video of Nova Scrimia, who are not doing Florentine, they are fencing spada y daga. I bring this up because I am quite certain the folks of Nova Scrimia would likely not care to find out people assumed they are doing the same style as what most people call Florentine. You also linked to two Kendokata who are practicing Nito-ryu. Nito-ryu is a traditional Japanese artform. I know for a fact that many Kendokata would be offended to hear this being termed as Florentine.

I don't bring this up to mince words with you, or to pick a fight, or even to point fingers. But it is sort of the equivalent of telling a licensed physician that he is doing the same thing as Reiki spiritual healing. This is not to say that one is better than the other, but it is certainly saying that there is a difference, and that to lump them together can be considered distasteful to many.


I know that this is a SCA type sport, it was the best I could do in explaination.


Sounds good to me as I learned new stuff about SCA and other ways of looking at things. Cool Big Grin

Oh, and congratulations about what seems like a good purchase. Any more details about how it feels in hand and how it is put together i.e. mini reviews are always very welcome. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Nathan Keysor




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have two of the older style coustille and they are very nimble little blades. I bought them through MRL and had them sharpen them. My only problem is with the leather on the grip which is poor quality and had huge stitches. If I ever get around to it I'll regrip them. They are great for two weapon fighting at clost quarters whatever we are calling it Wink


 Attachment: 50.87 KB
coustille3.jpg


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Dan P




Location: Massachusetts, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Coustille is definitely on my wish list! The only martial weapons practice I've done is modern stuff with things like knives, daggers, and batons, so what I know translates a lot better to short swords than longer weapons.
One of my favorite weapons is this one http://www.coldsteel.com/88nd.html. Its quick and deadly against stuff like boxes and cardboard tubes, and looks about the same length of the MRL. What I like doing, is using a stick or baton of similar length to the sword in my left hand, for parrying or beating, and the sword used mostly to thrust. I guess a buckler might be better for that though.
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Jeremiah Swanger




Location: Hershey, PA
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Posts: 531

PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Keysor wrote:
I have two of the older style coustille and they are very nimble little blades. I bought them through MRL and had them sharpen them. My only problem is with the leather on the grip which is poor quality and had huge stitches. If I ever get around to it I'll regrip them. They are great for two weapon fighting at clost quarters whatever we are calling it Wink


Thanks for posting a pic of the old one for comparison, Nathan. The new one definitely looks better. The hilt fittings look more appropriate, and the second fuller is definitely a nice touch!

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:


Oh, and congratulations about what seems like a good purchase. Any more details about how it feels in hand and how it is put together i.e. mini reviews are always very welcome. Big Grin


Thanks Jean.
It feel great, like it wants you to go outside and play. It's put together well just like the Type XIV and handles wickedly.
I had to get it because it looks so close to the XIV and I thought it would go great as a companion. (I think I said that already? Confused ) The grip could be better, but it's expected.
Now to make a sword plaque to hang 5 swords from. Gotta find the hardware first! I have the hardwood to sand, router and lacquer, just need to find the hooks to hang them from.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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