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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: training swords?         Reply with quote

I was thinking about training swords all the week and i was wondering if the training swords are all made or primarily made like the one in this site but the site is in french and it's from a school so if you can understand it... http://www.cercledeslames.com/artisants.html
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Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Reading list: 7 books

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Etienne,

All I can say is that there are plenty of manufacturers all around the world making training swords considerably better (safer and closer to historical reality) than those presented on this particular website. Wink

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

they are not very historical and stuff but that's not the point they don't very take care of the details i know but it's just for training and this type of ''sword'' is very cheap to make and the budget is very short because it is the student who make their swords and they don't look their swords at all it's just for training it's not for exposal.
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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Depends on exactly how thight your budget is, and where you are in the world.
You can get a pretty decent blunt for less than 150 €, either from a Hanweii reseller, or places like http://www.swords.pl/

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

there is not enough swordsellers in quebec and if the budget is almost 30$ there is almost nothing and that is the only way for a small budget to own a sword, build it from scratch Laughing Out Loud
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Michael K. Wandl




Location: Austria (AUT)
Joined: 22 Jun 2007

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hm, if you want a good sword (for training or whatever) have a look at this site: http://www.armorymarek.com/.
i know, it's an european smith and the prices are above 30$ but if you want a training sword you should also look at the quality (safety first!!). a good training sword needs to be made of good steel and it should be well balanced - it is better to spend a little bit more money for a high-quality-sword.

there are also other good smiths in europe and maybe there are good and cheap ones in america (i'm sure, but i don`t know one).

Michael

liep ane leit mac niht sin.

dietmar von aist. tagelied.
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Sivert Ugelvik





Joined: 15 Apr 2007

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Michael on this.....

Whatever you buy, make sure that its of good and solid steel, unless you want to make the sword useless as a training instrument due to dangerous nicks in the edge. Also make sure that the sword is as light as possible or you will be working on an injury due to training fatigue in no time, and you don't want that to happen for sure. Takes ages to mend.

So, in short, the above statement usually mean that you will spend some cash as these things don't come cheap.

You can always buy a cheap blade that has a solid construction as a stop gap, as most quality swords will have a delivery time close to a year, so you will have some time to save up the money. For a fast delivery of a quality sword take a look at the Maestro line at Albion-swords. The I:33 for a one-hander and the Lichtenauer if you need a longsword.
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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Étienne - I'm from Québec, and we use almost exclusively Heimrick swords for training and sparring. They are sturdy, balanced and robust. I've had one for about five years now, and have never had a problem - not so much as a rattle, and it's seen some serious use. He uses chrome-moly steel - and they're virtually indestructible. AEMMA uses them as well as the OMSG. What's better - he's fairly priced, just expect a long wait. I ordered five of them for my school in December, and am still waiting. They're all custom built to your preferences. His web site is pretty horrid, but don't judge him on that!

http://www.heimrick.netfirms.com/

Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason, do you know where i could find good steel? cause the only steel i can see for know that can be good is the steel from a leaf spring.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Etienne Hamel wrote:
Jason, do you know where i could find good steel? cause the only steel i can see for know that can be good is the steel from a leaf spring.


You can try here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9336

Some people also use old leaf springs, files, railroad spikes, etc.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i'm searching for good steel near st-hyacinthe in the quebec(canada) if posible.
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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Etienne Hamel wrote:
i'm searching for good steel near st-hyacinthe in the quebec(canada) if posible.


It really depends - do you have access to a lathe, or other machining tools, or is this intended as a strictly home-made job? What is the weapon to be used for? Training? Please, do yourself a favour and do not just make a metal bar into a sword-shaped object. That's not a training weapon, it's just a bar of steel with a handle, and its handling characteristics are nowhere near what you need. I see alot of this coming from La Compagnie Médiévale and other groups here in Quebec, and IMO, they are atrocious. You can buy steel anywhere it's sold - check your yellow pages, but even if you use good steel, it needs to be heat-treated and then tempered, otherwise it's just soft steel, and of no particular use. Do you have access to heat-treating facilities, etc? I hate to burst your bubble, but maybe you should pony up a few bucks and just buy a sword. Happy

Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the thing is, jason is that i don't just want to train. I want to learn how to forge but for that it takes some steel and some other stuff.
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i wanted to know too how long can be a leafspring (the longest)and in what car can i find it?
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Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 336

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
It really depends - do you have access to a lathe, or other machining tools, or is this intended as a strictly home-made job? What is the weapon to be used for? Training? Please, do yourself a favour and do not just make a metal bar into a sword-shaped object. That's not a training weapon, it's just a bar of steel with a handle, and its handling characteristics are nowhere near what you need. I see alot of this coming from La Compagnie Médiévale and other groups here in Quebec, and IMO, they are atrocious. You can buy steel anywhere it's sold - check your yellow pages, but even if you use good steel, it needs to be heat-treated and then tempered, otherwise it's just soft steel, and of no particular use. Do you have access to heat-treating facilities, etc? I hate to burst your bubble, but maybe you should pony up a few bucks and just buy a sword.


Hi Jason. Seems there is more and more people from Québec around here. Happy

I'm a student from la Compagnie Médiévale. We don't make swords. The Compagnie used to sell cheap training weapons from Darksword Armoury to its students however, but I don't know if it's still the case. Anyway I always try to discourage fellow students from buying this kind of stuff. Personnaly I use swords from Albion and Sword-Gur for training. Some students have Hanweï swords, others swords from SL-Armoury, and some students plan to buy from Armour Class some time in the future.

Étienne, maybe you can get a good waster to begin with. Then save your money and buy something much more satisfying than a 30$ crowbar. Wink

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Michael K. Wandl




Location: Austria (AUT)
Joined: 22 Jun 2007

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hey etienne!

the longest leaf spring i have at home is something like 140 x 12 x 1.5 (cm) i guess it is from a railway wagon - the best would be to ask your local scrab dealer. but please note: this steel is terrible hard - it's a hard thing to forge it, you can't use it like normal steel because it is (normally) air-hardening steel (don't put it in water, it will get as crisp as glas), grinding and drilling is pretty hard.
and i don't know if this steel is the right one for swords - it's quite good for knives and smaller stuff but i dare not to make blades longer than 30cm because i'm always afraid they would break (i don't use them for fighting).
maybe it would be better to use a softer steel for your first trials - you can harden it after the first grinding.

but hey - maybe i tell you just nonsense, i'm just a hobby-smith myself.

Michael

liep ane leit mac niht sin.

dietmar von aist. tagelied.
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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael K. Wandl wrote:
hey etienne!

the longest leaf spring i have at home is something like 140 x 12 x 1.5 (cm) i guess it is from a railway wagon - the best would be to ask your local scrab dealer. but please note: this steel is terrible hard - it's a hard thing to forge it, you can't use it like normal steel because it is (normally) air-hardening steel (don't put it in water, it will get as crisp as glas), grinding and drilling is pretty hard.
and i don't know if this steel is the right one for swords - it's quite good for knives and smaller stuff but i dare not to make blades longer than 30cm because i'm always afraid they would break (i don't use them for fighting).
maybe it would be better to use a softer steel for your first trials - you can harden it after the first grinding.

but hey - maybe i tell you just nonsense, i'm just a hobby-smith myself.

Michael


You can probably get long leaf springs from a full-size pickup, but remember you need to straighten it out by pounding for a long time with a hammer first! Then you need to remove stock (grind and cut it) into shape, and like Michael said, it's a very hard metal- because it's already heat treated and tempered. If you heat it or grind it too much, it will lose its temper. Leaf springs are usually made from 5160 alloy steel - an excellent metal for making robust swords - although that too can be the target of some debate. My advice? If you want to get into forging swords, do alot of research into metallurgy first, then find a metal dealer near you. I know Montreal has places where you can send your swords to be heat treated and tempered after you're done - both Heimrick and SL use the same place, I believe. Regardless of whether you use 10xx steel or 41xx or 51xx or 61xx steel, you'll need to get it treated first. And there are much better sources out there for this kind of thing than I ! Happy

Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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Posts: 130

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugo Voisine wrote:


Hi Jason. Seems there is more and more people from Québec around here. Happy

I'm a student from la Compagnie Médiévale. We don't make swords. The Compagnie used to sell cheap training weapons from Darksword Armoury to its students however, but I don't know if it's still the case. Anyway I always try to discourage fellow students from buying this kind of stuff. Personnaly I use swords from Albion and Sword-Gur for training. Some students have Hanweï swords, others swords from SL-Armoury, and some students plan to buy from Armour Class some time in the future.

Étienne, maybe you can get a good waster to begin with. Then save your money and buy something much more satisfying than a 30$ crowbar. Wink


Indeed - I've been lurking around for some time. Hats off to the maintainers of this site, BTW.

I didn't mean to imply that LCM made swords - only that they used crappy crowbars for their training weapons - which spread out to a number of splinter groups afterwards. Hopefully they've gotten better in that regard since.

You can't go wrong with an Albion, but they're too pretty to be banged up - it would hurt my heart and my wallet too much, which is why I use relatively cheap Heimrick training swords (approx. $250 CDN). In my experience, Hanwei swords are cheap knock-offs, and I dislike them. I won't even let them into the salle. Nice shiny wall hangers. As for SL armoury - they make nice stuff (used to be Rothgard et Ganelon, and was sold off) but it's a bit on the fantasy side for my tastes. Again, this is just my opinion - and I'm admittedly picky. Happy

I agree - save your cash and get a good sword. This site is an excellent reference, BTW.

Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Michael K. Wandl




Location: Austria (AUT)
Joined: 22 Jun 2007

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

it was written here more than one time: save your money for a good sword.

a second thing is: check out severel different swords (from different producers) becuase if you order a sword blind and afterwards you don't like it (the balance, the fabrication,...) it is wasted money.
i don't know about your background or the LH/reenactment scene in canada/america - but if there are meetings or medieval markets near you, go there and ask if you can test this or that sword, ask who produced it. like this you can find your favourite fabricator. (best would be to talk to the producers if they are at the meeting/market).

liep ane leit mac niht sin.

dietmar von aist. tagelied.
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 424

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jun, 2007 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the metal i was talking about was a FLAT bar it doesn't look like a crowbar to me and for only 4$ can i was able to purchase a litle more than 3feet.
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